Dr. Kwon’s DG 3D motion study

[Brychanus]

I do understand why it is hard to 'see' the difference, but the feeling is absolutely night and day from my perspective. Squishing the bug does feel faster, and I think that is why people get a bit stuck on the concept. It also feels powerful, because it is forceful. But in reality, it just cannot really match the power of falling with gravity itself.

I don't know if you have ever skate/snowboarded and learned how to 'pump' your legs to accelerate on sloping terrain, but this seems like a relevant feeling to me. If you have done this, you know you don't simply extend your legs as fast as you can, its slower, and you have to set up the feeling of falling with gravity to really get the power.

Agree w/ everything RB said there. I'm afraid I should have left it at that, but I'll try one more time to help people with this issue. It may be a fool's errand, but I wouldn't be the first instructor who started as a fool.

There's probably stuff getting lost in translation especially when teaching vs doing.

I agree with this and IMO there are many reasons it is hard to see and feel. Kinetically when you start moving faster it can get blurry, even perceptually to the player doing it. I will even say that I've found trying to optimize the "better" shift much harder than the spin-shifting squish because it's much more about getting a clean leverage chain than it is rapidly rotating the body, so I totally get the temptation.

I have no way to substantiate this without real data, but I think sometimes what happens is that people sometimes start out squishing the bug and get an "aha!" because it can get your weight moving fairly quickly. Over time for some people, as their form develops their legs and posture kinda restabilize and the squish the bug sometimes goes away and they might not even realize it. I also think there are intermediate "quasi-squishers" out there. Legs and hips fascinate me because they have so many options to move.

The fact is, like RB is saying, squishing seems like a quick way to shift weight. But really stop to think about how, why, and where you want a swing to be "quick."

Aside from potential injury implications, the trouble with squishing the bug in terms of efficient mechanics is that you are missing out on some leverage through the legs and hips, and you are leaving more of your body mass behind in the chain (if you think about optimizing your m*v equation). McBeth's weight shift literally gets more of his mAss leading the swing than bug squishers. Squishers kind of neutralize part of the mass in favor of a forced faster rotation - but ideally I think you'd want as much mass as possible leading before you add velocity. I'm a big guy and even with other mechanics problems, there's a tremendous efficiency difference between the two.

People who really do squish the bug when they throw likely tend to spray more (also speculating from anecdotal observation), probably because their feet aren't grounded quite as well when they plant. This became very noticeable to me when I started throwing heavier things.

I don't think it's a coincidence that very athletic, quick, and long-levered people can get away with some form of squishing the bug and get decent distance results. However, it's interesting to me that you have the three "longest" looking, athletically talented new FPO players all learning or teaching some version of this, and you have diminutive prime Paige Pierce decidedly not bug squishing and absolutely crushing discs. All of the new FPO players teaching it seem to have been influenced by Slingshot or similar sources. In Ella's recent post, she on the one hand taught a version of squishing the bug and pushing off the rear leg, then transitioned to a completely different motion when she actually threw that wasn't quite either of those actions. Notice various other differences in the drill mechanics some players teach from what they do when they swing. Speculating, I don't think we've seen anywhere close to the FPO distance ceiling because if you took Ella or Holyn or Caroline and gave them GG or McBeth or McMahon's balance and shift, I wonder what would happen. On tour, there is a "natural selection" process for forms especially in the MPO division that clearly favors ever-increasing distance yet maintains a premium on consistency in all phases of the game. In FPO those pressures probably differ due to course design and current field strength. I always wonder how this competition and selection pressure has caused mechanics at the top level to evolve in MPO vs FPO. I am otherwise consciously sidestepping other issues that might differ between current top FPO and MPO players and would say that it is worth talking about that too, including potential meaningful differences across different body types.

Also, notice that nothing I said here rebutted anything about the idea that the drive leg is not a fundamental, essential part of throwing well and throwing far. I just encourage skepticism about squishing the bug, and that no one should just take my word for it.

I can tell nothing from any of those pictures other than 6-time really has a huge stride forward compared to everybody. :|

I am happy to attempt to answer any specific questions if I can.

In general, compare the postures through the pelvic, orientation of the knees, location of the pressure of the feet against the ground, and sequence of the leg action when watching throws in real time. It took me months to understand. I still work on it myself.

I unfortunately can't show it all in one static picture so it's part of my bigger project. SW has been trying to show people via various dozens of images, words, and videos for years apparently.

I would otherwise refer mostly back to encourage people to start with the content I pointed out above here:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3189362&postcount=3

My issue with the pictures are that the first two pictures aren't of the person throwing a disc, but the third one is.

I would take issue with why SW's drill motions differ from Caroline or SS's drill motions

I would take issue with why some people say one thing and appear to do another (or sometimes not).

I would take issue with why Caroline's drill motion finish position differs from (1) Simon's throwing finish position, (2) GG's throwing finish position, (3) Sidewinder's drill finish position.

Who is still reading this? I'm just having fun. Go throw. <3

 

[Sard0nyx]

I would take issue with why SW's drill motions differ from Caroline or SS's drill motions

I would take issue with why some people say one thing and appear to do another (or sometimes not).

I would take issue with why Caroline's drill motion finish position differs from (1) Simon's throwing finish position, (2) GG's throwing finish position, (3) Sidewinder's drill finish position.

Who is still reading this? I'm just having fun. Go throw. <3

Sorry. Didn't mean to come across as overly aggressive. But the differences in their finishes seem a bit subtle. Is Caroline's upper body just too far in front at the finish? How do you know if you're squishing the bug?

 

[Brychanus]

Sorry. Didn't mean to come across as overly aggressive. But the differences in their finishes seem a bit subtle. Is Caroline's upper body just too far in front at the finish? How do you know if you're squishing the bug?

Not at all! Please continue to interpret anything I write as playful rhetoric.

A few things to point out, but first look at where her head is relative to her ankle compared to the others. When you "spin shift" it kind of forces your body mass to land farther behind the brace/away from the target, otherwise you would go careening entirely off balance. This also means that you didn't get the full effect of body mass leading the swing (especially from the butt, get all that junk in your trunk to do some "free" work!).

So squishing the bug "works" in the sense that you can find a way to brace up and throw, but the reason her finish position looks different is the same or at least similar to why slingshots follow through and posture looks different than mcbeth's.

I think RB's response is true and that makes it a little hard to know it when you see it or do it until you've firmly done otherwise. But IMO/experience it's way more likely to happen if your posture is tilting or leaning in various ways and you end up forcing more rotation off the rear leg than you should. As you pointed out in terms of drills vs. real throws, I think "in the wild" it's more like a continuum from squishing the bug to the ideal move, or other versions of less-than-ideal moves.

Anecdotally I also find it much easier to detect in standstills since it's a little easier to feel the foot pressure at first, and it's still been considerably harder for me to optimize in X step. In general as balance and posture improve together the temptation to spin shift/squish off for acceleration has diminished for me. There's more emphasis on the lateral part of the shift, and the rotation is more about the torque of my feet resisting the ground than forcing the hips open from the rear leg.

 

[Sard0nyx]

Not at all! Please continue to interpret anything I write as playful rhetoric.

A few things to point out, but first look at where her head is relative to her ankle compared to the others. When you "spin shift" it kind of forces your body mass to land farther behind the brace/away from the target, otherwise you would go careening entirely off balance. This also means that you didn't get the full effect of body mass leading the swing (especially from the butt, get all that junk in your trunk to do some "free" work!).

So squishing the bug "works" in the sense that you can find a way to brace up and throw, but the reason her finish position looks different is the same or at least similar to why slingshots follow through and posture looks different than mcbeth's.

I think RB's response is true and that makes it a little hard to know it when you see it or do it until you've firmly done otherwise. But IMO/experience it's way more likely to happen if your posture is tilting or leaning in various ways and you end up forcing more rotation off the rear leg than you should. As you pointed out in terms of drills vs. real throws, I think "in the wild" it's more like a continuum from squishing the bug to the ideal move, or other versions of less-than-ideal moves.

Anecdotally I also find it much easier to detect in standstills since it's a little easier to feel the foot pressure at first, and it's still been considerably harder for me to optimize in X step. In general as balance and posture improve together the temptation to spin shift/squish off for acceleration has diminished for me. There's more emphasis on the lateral part of the shift, and the rotation is more about the torque of my feet resisting the ground than forcing the hips open from the rear leg.

Feels very nuanced at times. To me it seems like we're answering the question of what rotates the hips? Or at least clear the front hip. And to me the answers are back leg or front leg or somewhere in between.

 

[Brychanus]

I might remind anyone of the 1st two videos below.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3424148&postcount=1

For the onlookers, I'll continue in the rhetorical mode and at my most playful.

Consider whether you believe that it really is any different than golf in a fundamental way and if so, how and why? What would change in an X-step, if anything? Why or why not?

Once you account for adjusting golf mechanics for a one arm throw, what else remains left to explain? None, some, or all of it?

Once you account for striding sideways with the crow hopping, side shuffle hopping, or leg crossing behind, what changes? What stays the same?

What do posture and balance have to do with any of it? Are they mere symptoms, or causes? Are they hard constraints, or merely guidelines? Why does SW insist that posture>sequence>timing? Do you agree? Why or why not?

Why does RowingBoats insist to just go out there and swing that mAss around and voila? Why did SW create so many drills in so many species of footwear? Why does Jaani insist it's just as natural as walking? Why does Slingshot keep asking for your money while telling you he's a non-expert? Why does Overthrow get so many views? Why does every adult pro or amateur like to teach form while they're learning it, and the people who learned it growing up teach in a completely different way, if at all? Why do some people insist their way is the only way, and others believe no one has any of it right at all? What is up, and where is down? Why are trees? Is there a center of the multiverse? How you doin'? Should I eat salad or chicken wings tonight? Por que no los dos?

In these musty aging halls of DGCR there may lie answers to one or more of these questions. Should you proceed to use the search function, SW's basement, another YouTuber, your local coach, or out into the field?

Can you tell I'm struggling to not throw 24 hours a day?

 

[Sard0nyx]

Not at all! Please continue to interpret anything I write as playful rhetoric.

A few things to point out, but first look at where her head is relative to her ankle compared to the others. When you "spin shift" it kind of forces your body mass to land farther behind the brace/away from the target, otherwise you would go careening entirely off balance. This also means that you didn't get the full effect of body mass leading the swing (especially from the butt, get all that junk in your trunk to do some "free" work!).

So squishing the bug "works" in the sense that you can find a way to brace up and throw, but the reason her finish position looks different is the same or at least similar to why slingshots follow through and posture looks different than mcbeth's.

I think RB's response is true and that makes it a little hard to know it when you see it or do it until you've firmly done otherwise. But IMO/experience it's way more likely to happen if your posture is tilting or leaning in various ways and you end up forcing more rotation off the rear leg than you should. As you pointed out in terms of drills vs. real throws, I think "in the wild" it's more like a continuum from squishing the bug to the ideal move, or other versions of less-than-ideal moves.

Anecdotally I also find it much easier to detect in standstills since it's a little easier to feel the foot pressure at first, and it's still been considerably harder for me to optimize in X step. In general as balance and posture improve together the temptation to spin shift/squish off for acceleration has diminished for me. There's more emphasis on the lateral part of the shift, and the rotation is more about the torque of my feet resisting the ground than forcing the hips open from the rear leg.

Oops. Double posted.

 

[Brychanus]

Feels very nuanced at times. To me it seems like we're answering the question of what rotates the hips? Or at least clear the front hip. And to me the answers are back leg or front leg or somewhere in between.

I'll take the opportunity to be less playful - observe how your hips move when your feet march around on the ground. Try to just observe it rather than micromanage it:

When are your hips more likely to feel like they're rotating in a more parallel plane to the ground? How did your overall body positions/posture change?

When are they more likely to feel like they're clearing "up and back away" from the target?

What happens when you do either just swinging your arm around?

 

[bryantlikes]

Feels very nuanced at times. To me it seems like we're answering the question of what rotates the hips? Or at least clear the front hip. And to me the answers are back leg or front leg or somewhere in between.

Coming from a baseball/golf background, pretty sure the no one is preaching squish the bug there.

But give this a try. Do the elephant walk drill. Ok, now do it again but squish the bug while you're doing it. You can feel the spinout.

 

[Countchunkula]

Coming from a baseball/golf background, pretty sure the no one is preaching squish the bug there.

But give this a try. Do the elephant walk drill. Ok, now do it again but squish the bug while you're doing it. You can feel the spinout.

I actually heard a parent giving batting tips at a little league game a few weeks ago and teaching squish the bug. Thought about saying something, but "You see, I'm a member of this disc golf forum..." probably wasn't going to sound very authoritative.

 

[TiltedFlipCurves]

Well with that picture it's "what am I looking for exactly" and "are they even at the same point in the swing?"

But the real question is "how are you gonna explain all this to someone who may or may not be 6 and never saw a disc before?"

 

[Brychanus]

Well with that picture it's "what am I looking for exactly" and "are they even at the same point in the swing?"

But the real question is "how are you gonna explain all this to someone who may or may not be 6 and never saw a disc before?"

I show them the difference between the moves in person, then have the player do both. With as few words as possible, and preferably none unless they have questions.

 

[RowingBoats]

I show them the difference between the moves in person, then have the player do both. With as few words as possible, and preferably none unless they have questions.

Properly understanding the one-leg swing also eliminates the possibility of squishing the bug in my opinion. I know that drill/concept is contentious because the back leg is required by most people for balance, but if you attempt to do the one-leg drill/swing and concentrate on using the back leg as minimally as possible, it will disabuse people of a lot of bad ideas.

 

[Brychanus]

Properly understanding the one-leg swing also eliminates the possibility of squishing the bug in my opinion. I know that drill/concept is contentious because the back leg is required by most people for balance, but if you attempt to do the one-leg drill/swing and concentrate on using the back leg as minimally as possible, it will disabuse people of a lot of bad ideas.

When I/others were learning one leg drill, SW also often liked to point out you can put just a tiny bit of pressure on the rear foot instep in the backswing to help brace it. He does that himself in his drill video. I started to understand what rear leg loading and shifting is after that.

The reason is that it feels like almost nothing, but as SW pointed out, something like 60-70% of your body weight shifting back when you load up a backswing from a pressure reading he took. Feel vs. real issue. How you interact with the ground is how you throw, and the frustrating thing for people trying to learn from places like DGCR is that you can't see it on camera without pressure readings. Eventually you can develop "pressure vision" just watching players throw.

From the one-leg drill, if you try to do that squishing the bug from the rear foot (forcing the rear leg into internal rotation with that much weight on it), something dramatically different happens. I immediately started to understand why I nearly destroyed both of my knees trying to squish the bug in live throws.

It's also why e.g. Caroline needs to open up her plant foot midway through demonstrating her move in that video before she does even a drill swing forward (~3:15).
https://youtu.be/bl84W7QT5y0?t=195

So, does she actually do this when she throws, literally? What would happen to her front knee if she swung literally and completely squishing the bug in one organic motion? Why or why not? Is it the same or different than Coach T? Why or why not?

Also btw why I sympathize with folks skeptical and confused about the general dilemma about whether drills are throws, and whether throws are drills for any given player or YouTube source. It's a strange thing indeed how often SW's drill moves match high-level (550'+) pro motion without modification. Maybe it's just a coincidence.

I'm still just having fun. None of this matters, right? This is a disc golf forum, baby. Important to relax, not sweat the small stuff, get slangin' and have fun! I'm really craving some wings now.

Didn't this thread start with Dr. Kwon?

 

[RowingBoats]

When I/others were learning one leg drill, SW also often liked to point out you can put just a tiny bit of pressure on the rear foot instep in the backswing to help brace it. He does that himself in his drill video. I started to understand what rear leg loading and shifting is after that.

The reason is that it feels like almost nothing, but as SW pointed out, something like 60-70% of your body weight shifting back when you load up a backswing from a pressure reading he took. Feel vs. real issue. How you interact with the ground is how you throw, and the frustrating thing for people trying to learn from places like DGCR is that you can't see it on camera without pressure readings. Eventually you can develop "pressure vision" just watching players throw.

From the one-leg drill, if you try to do that squishing the bug from the rear foot (forcing the rear leg into internal rotation with that much weight on it), something dramatically different happens. I immediately started to understand why I nearly destroyed both of my knees trying to squish the bug in live throws.

It's also why e.g. Caroline needs to open up her plant foot midway through demonstrating her move in that video before she does even a drill swing forward (~3:15).
https://youtu.be/bl84W7QT5y0?t=195

So, does she actually do this when she throws, literally? What would happen to her front knee if she swung literally and completely squishing the bug in one organic motion? Why or why not? Is it the same or different than Coach T? Why or why not?

Also btw why I sympathize with folks skeptical and confused about the general dilemma about whether drills are throws, and whether throws are drills for any given player or YouTube source. It's a strange thing indeed how often SW's drill moves match high-level (550'+) pro motion without modification. Maybe it's just a coincidence.

I'm still just having fun. None of this matters, right? This is a disc golf forum, baby. Important to relax, not sweat the small stuff, get slangin' and have fun! I'm really craving some wings now.

Didn't this thread start with Dr. Kwon?

Yep exactly. I think a ton of people brush off the one-leg drill because it fundamentally goes against their back-leg habits. Admittedly it does feel weird if you are a back-leg thrower so I do understand, but its one of those drills that is absolutely legit imo.

 

[timothy42b]

Yep exactly. I think a ton of people brush off the one-leg drill because it fundamentally goes against their back-leg habits. Admittedly it does feel weird if you are a back-leg thrower so I do understand, but its one of those drills that is absolutely legit imo.

A couple years ago we had 44 pages of discussion about understanding the OLD. (I'm still not sure I do but I work on the drill.)

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137378&highlight=don't+leg+drill

PS if there's better way to link to a thread let me know, I wasn't sure.

 

[Brychanus]

Well with that picture it's "what am I looking for exactly" and "are they even at the same point in the swing?"

Sorry, I didn't realize I missed the first question. :-(

The ground pressure flow is different between the two moves and is correlated with differences in posture and the sequence, so defining the same point is tricky. I roughly calibrated them to when the weight reaches the front heel in the plant. It might be more helpful to show more of the upper body to show the correlation between types of bug squishes and other posture differences to some readers since I agree that it may be hard for some people to see if they already don't know what to look for.

There are other images that could be shared or made to indicate specific components about the body's balance, angulation, orientation, and direction of movement if there is anything in particular you or others wonder about.

I wasn't being glib about the suggestion that showing & doing in person is my preferred way to do it and with as few words as possible. I think many threads on this forum and others show how easy it is to look at the same images, words, and videos and talk past one another. It usually works faster with younger people if they need to see the distinction at all. Older people seem to benefit from playing with it more in standstills or one leg drill style throws for a while at first and rule stuff out with little experiments. As the (fascinating) One Leg Drill thread timothy linked suggests, things can get quite dicey in some of these written conversations for many reasons! My intent is to avoid a similar situation. My rhetoric is really just to encourage people to tinker around and play and find the natural movements.

I do think that RowingBoats suggestion about Elephant Walk or OLD is a great way to test it out. Playing with the size of the shift, stagger, direction of the stride, and so on are all great learning aids. Figure out what gets you from foot to foot easily, and what gives the most and longest and latest acceleration for your body. Do some without a disc, then throw right away and see if you can connect the moves.

 

[RowingBoats]

A couple years ago we had 44 pages of discussion about understanding the OLD. (I'm still not sure I do but I work on the drill.)

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137378&highlight=don't+leg+drill

PS if there's better way to link to a thread let me know, I wasn't sure.

Omg hahaha. Rodeo…

That guy was so obstinate and ridiculous and was around when I was just learning. I honestly think I have to attribute some of my success to that dudes absurd contrarian demeanor though lol.

 

[RowingBoats]

Omg hahaha. Rodeo…

That guy was so obstinate and ridiculous and was around when I was just learning. I honestly think I have to attribute some of my success to that dudes absurd contrarian demeanor though lol.

Lol I had to go re-read a bunch of that thread, thanks for bringing that one back up haha what a blast from the past to read stuff I was writing at the very beginning.

 

[timothy42b]

For the onlookers, I'll continue in the rhetorical mode and at my most playful.

Consider whether you believe that it really is any different than golf in a fundamental way and if so, how and why? What would change in an X-step, if anything? Why or why not?

Once you account for adjusting golf mechanics for a one arm throw, what else remains left to explain? None, some, or all of it?

Dr Kwon has a 7 video discussion of ball golf biomechanics. I watched one some time ago, but could not wrap my head around which way the forces were pointing compared to the avatar.

Today I watched the first two and now I see what he's talking about. (That understanding may disappear as I continue.) I did not understand that he was talking about frontal plane rotation as if the golf swing were completely vertical.

The concepts of moment arm and force must apply equally to motion in any plane but at the moment I'm not grasping where those forces are in a much more horizontal disc golf swing.

 

[Brychanus]

Dr Kwon has a 7 video discussion of ball golf biomechanics. I watched one some time ago, but could not wrap my head around which way the forces were pointing compared to the avatar.

Today I watched the first two and now I see what he's talking about. (That understanding may disappear as I continue.) I did not understand that he was talking about frontal plane rotation as if the golf swing were completely vertical.

The concepts of moment arm and force must apply equally to motion in any plane but at the moment I'm not grasping where those forces are in a much more horizontal disc golf swing.

I think it's a good time for me to revisit these too so I will.

First thing to mention is that as always, I too was confused about the transition to the horizontal-looking disc golf swing. What I would encourage is to actually force yourself to see it as vertical as possible before looking at the horizontal.

My current "4D" vision notices the separation of the shoulders, knees, hips, and so on in the vertical plane as players move. Notice that even the extremely horizontal Eagle (man I really wish this kid was healthy...) has side bend that helps get his shoulders swinging with a large vertical component, which synergizes with the vertical knee and hip separation acting back against gravity when he plants to swing. His move is so efficient horizontally in part because he's hiding all kinds of incredibly efficient and powerful vertical force in it.

Can point out specific pieces here if any of that sounded like mumbo jumbo. I'm finding every piece of it relevant to the last few mini breakthroughs in my own technique. Look for the vertical separation in knees hips and shoulders here. Golfer and Eagle have a lot in common: