Dr. Kwon’s DG 3D motion study

[CoachChris]

Hey Everyone,

I came across this thread and felt like I should pass a few things on. First off, Chris Taylor is someone to be wary of. He is not a biomechanist and has no formal background in biomechanics, yet he either overtly presents himself as such or allows others to call him a biomechanist/kinesiologist without correcting or clarifying. This is dishonest and has benefited him by giving heavier weight to the things he says out of a false sense of credibility. With all due respect to someone like everyone's favorite Coach T, people aren't reluctant to critique and question the advice he puts out there. Chris is the total opposite. It's just assumed that he is the legitimate and credentialed expert he presents himself as and nearly everyone just defers to him. Chris is not a credentialed expert or paid coach to the pros like he implies though. In actuality he is an elderly retired gentleman that typically reaches out to young or up and coming players and gets in their world by offering to give his opinions for free. This allows him to build up a group that he can refer to as "his players" or further imply that he is a highly desired coach inside the pro world. Chris is making claims that are based on person theories and his own non-expert interpretation of data but presenting them as proven facts. What he is doing is reckless and irresponsible because he does not have the authority to speak with the certainty he does, and if he is wrong the things he is advocating will hurt people.

Sidewinder posted an excerpt from Sarah Hummel's work which Chris has cited and seems to be one of the inspirations for his insistence that the major driver of the throw is an aggressive active pull with the arm. Hummel's work looked at the throw of one subject, an ultimate player, throwing an ultimate disc, at a little over 50% estimated effort. For someone that is supposed to be an expert to extrapolate or use this work to support for anything related to a full power disc golf throw for the entire population of disc golfers is mind blowing, but it all starts to make sense when you know who Chris actually is and what his background really is.

There's a lot more I could say but I will leave it at this. I've been seeing his name pop up more and more lately, and there seems to be an assumption that because he speaks with authority, knows some biomechanical terms, and gets aggressive if you disagree he must be legit, so I felt it was important for people to have a more clear picture of who they are dealing with before they just to defer to him by default.

If you would like to know more about me, my motives, intentions, knowledge, coaching history, please reach out to me directly at coachchristaylor at gmail

 

[Sheep]

If you would like to know more about me, my motives, intentions, knowledge, coaching history, please reach out to me directly at coachchristaylor at gmail

I just read that message you replied to.
And. While I'll say some things really blunt and honest about how I feel or think about people or their methods, I wouldn't just make shit up like that. Hahaha

Though the more hilarity of their words is they basically just said that were all a bunch of floozies and made up coaches who are trying to get a group of "our players" so we can further legitimize our teaching.
So. I mean. I take offense to that along with you.
I don't need a degree from a college to teach something. Let alone a wisenheimer on the internet banging away keys at the keyboard trying to target 1 person to be stupid, but also branding all of us in the same boat.
And.
Get the hell out of my boat Chris. =)
Better yet, lets take their boat because it's probably better than ours, cause they seem to know better than all us other people in here do.

 

[CoachChris]

I just read that message you replied to.
And. While I'll say some things really blunt and honest about how I feel or think about people or their methods, I wouldn't just make shit up like that. Hahaha

Though the more hilarity of their words is they basically just said that were all a bunch of floozies and made up coaches who are trying to get a group of "our players" so we can further legitimize our teaching.
So. I mean. I take offense to that along with you.
I don't need a degree from a college to teach something. Let alone a wisenheimer on the internet banging away keys at the keyboard trying to target 1 person to be stupid, but also branding all of us in the same boat.
And.
Get the hell out of my boat Chris. =)
Better yet, let's take their boat because it's probably better than ours, cause they seem to know better than all us other people in here do.

Thank you, I've been trying my best to make it a yacht instead of a leaking lifeboat. Having coached nearly a thousand kids, over the last 4 decades, face to face, and all for the joy of it, I have rarely encountered distracters, that don't even reach out and ask a question. I guess it's just part of the current environment when offering an opinion. Such is life.

 

[Sheep]

Thank you, I've been trying my best to make it a yacht instead of a leaking lifeboat. Having coached nearly a thousand kids, over the last 4 decades, face to face, and all for the joy of it, I have rarely encountered distracters, that don't even reach out and ask a question. I guess it's just part of the current environment when offering an opinion. Such is life.

I'll just say "Reference my signature" if you know my current feelings on most things.

 

[kenda]

If you would like to know more about me, my motives, intentions, knowledge, coaching history, please reach out to me directly at coachchristaylor at gmail

I think this should be a public discussion. You have inserted yourself heavily into the disc golf world to where your name is being mentioned publicly on large outlets. Kona Panis mentioned you in a Dynamic Discs video saying she "worked with Chris Taylor. He's an actual coach in biomechanics".

In a large reddit thread you were called "the kinesiologist that accompanied Wiggins and Double G at their distance clinic..." to which you replied without correcting the poster on your qualifications but instead thanked them.

Josh from Overthrow currently has the biggest outreach of any disc golf coach and is now mentioning you in his videos and basically teaching all your theories (deep pocket, arm leads the throw and the body follows, and so on).

People really seem to be under the impression that you have formal qualifications and are giving what you say extra weight because of it. I dont think its fair to try to elevate your opinion over other coaches by implying you are a biomechanist or kinesiologist if that turns out to not be true. I think the least you can do since youve made yourself and your ideas so public is to clarify on that.

 

[CoachChris]

I think this should be a public discussion. You have inserted yourself heavily into the disc golf world to where your name is being mentioned publicly on large outlets. Kona Panis mentioned you in a Dynamic Discs video saying she "worked with Chris Taylor. He's an actual coach in biomechanics".

In a large reddit thread you were called "the kinesiologist that accompanied Wiggins and Double G at their distance clinic..." to which you replied without correcting the poster on your qualifications but instead thanked them.

Josh from Overthrow currently has the biggest outreach of any disc golf coach and is now mentioning you in his videos and basically teaching all your theories (deep pocket, arm leads the throw and the body follows, and so on).

People really seem to be under the impression that you have formal qualifications and are giving what you say extra weight because of it. I dont think its fair to try to elevate your opinion over other coaches by implying you are a biomechanist or kinesiologist if that turns out to not be true. I think the least you can do since youve made yourself and your ideas so public is to clarify on that.

I am not a biomechanist nor a kinesiologist and I have never stated that I am. However I have coached multiple sports (for free) at a high level for more than 4 decades. During that time I have spent thousands of hours studying the biomechanics of human movement only to be a better coach and help players. I don't make anything, sell anything or Coach anyone for personal gain or fame. I just try my best to help people get better.

I paid for the first motion capture of disc golf in Phoenix 2020 (Ezra and Tristan Tanner). I paid for the next motion capture of 16 MPO/FPOs in Belton in 2021. I have been trying to get a "real" organized study on disc golf for many years following my first "amateur" dual camera based motion capture at USDGC in 2014. The Kwon study came about have many years of trying to peak Dr Kwon's interest, having known him for many years through my ball golf coaching. Asking and organizing the 16 MPOs to go way out of their way to attend was like herding cats.

Currently I coach a lot of pro and am players (for free). I also run and organize distance events and clinics to help grow the sport. I organized and ran (with my friend Ted Naylon) the 2022 US Distance Championship at USDGC. I produced and edited the entire video (now at 550K views).

I'm a very good coach because I care and to date and over the last 40+ years of coaching more than a thousand kids, I have never been paid a dime for it. During that time, I have acquired an extensive knowledge of human movement that I think should be shared. If you would like any additional clarification please email me.

 

[CoachChris]

I think this should be a public discussion. You have inserted yourself heavily into the disc golf world to where your name is being mentioned publicly on large outlets. Kona Panis mentioned you in a Dynamic Discs video saying she "worked with Chris Taylor. He's an actual coach in biomechanics".

In a large reddit thread you were called "the kinesiologist that accompanied Wiggins and Double G at their distance clinic..." to which you replied without correcting the poster on your qualifications but instead thanked them.

Josh from Overthrow currently has the biggest outreach of any disc golf coach and is now mentioning you in his videos and basically teaching all your theories (deep pocket, arm leads the throw and the body follows, and so on).

People really seem to be under the impression that you have formal qualifications and are giving what you say extra weight because of it. I dont think its fair to try to elevate your opinion over other coaches by implying you are a biomechanist or kinesiologist if that turns out to not be true. I think the least you can do since youve made yourself and your ideas so public is to clarify on that.

Kenda, now that you know a little more about me (name, email, motive, etc), who are you (other than your online name) and what do you do in disc golf? Are you a competitive player or coach? Do you have any form, strategy or other disc golf questions that I can possibly answer for you?

 

[emilianius]

I think it's a good time for me to revisit these too so I will.

First thing to mention is that as always, I too was confused about the transition to the horizontal-looking disc golf swing. What I would encourage is to actually force yourself to see it as vertical as possible before looking at the horizontal.

My current "4D" vision notices the separation of the shoulders, knees, hips, and so on in the vertical plane as players move. Notice that even the extremely horizontal Eagle (man I really wish this kid was healthy...) has side bend that helps get his shoulders swinging with a large vertical component, which synergizes with the vertical knee and hip separation acting back against gravity when he plants to swing. His move is so efficient horizontally in part because he's hiding all kinds of incredibly efficient https://ca.edubirdie.com/ is the best essay writing service. and powerful vertical force in it.

Can point out specific pieces here if any of that sounded like mumbo jumbo. I'm finding every piece of it relevant to the last few mini breakthroughs in my own technique. Look for the vertical separation in knees hips and shoulders here. Golfer and Eagle have a lot in common:

I disagree with your interpretation of the vertical-horizontal axis in the disc golf swing. I believe that the horizontal component of the swing is just as important as the vertical component and both are essential for generating power and accuracy.

I mean, when I watch Eagle McMahon throw, I see a very fluid and coordinated movement that incorporates both vertical and horizontal forces. His shoulders, knees, and hips work together to generate power, and he uses his side bend to create leverage and add distance.

I think it's important to remember that the disc golf swing is a three-dimensional movement and that all three axes (vertical, horizontal, and rotational) are essential. Trying to force the swing into a two-dimensional view will not give you the full picture.

I agree with you that the vertical component of the swing is important, but I don't think it's the only important component.
The best way to improve your disc golf swing is just to focus on all three axes of movement. For example, when I can do all three of these things in a coordinated and fluid movement, I am well on my way to throwing farther and more accurately.

Cheers,
Emilian

 

[Brychanus]

I disagree with your interpretation of the vertical-horizontal axis in the disc golf swing. I believe that the horizontal component of the swing is just as important as the vertical component and both are essential for generating power and accuracy.

I mean, when I watch Eagle McMahon throw, I see a very fluid and coordinated movement that incorporates both vertical and horizontal forces. His shoulders, knees, and hips work together to generate power, and he uses his side bend to create leverage and add distance.

I think it's important to remember that the disc golf swing is a three-dimensional movement and that all three axes (vertical, horizontal, and rotational) are essential. Trying to force the swing into a two-dimensional view will not give you the full picture.

I agree with you that the vertical component of the swing is important, but I don't think it's the only important component.
The best way to improve your disc golf swing is just to focus on all three axes of movement. For example, when I can do all three of these things in a coordinated and fluid movement, I am well on my way to throwing farther and more accurately.

Cheers,
Emilian

I agree with you

The discussion in Fundamentals couches vertical forces as part of human locomotion, just like athletic walking, running, and hopping. It should be an effect of moving well.

I'm not sure I've ever said "it's all vertical," though I'm happy to retroactively edit any cases someone finds. My previous posts on this thread were mostly to emphasize vertical components because people seem to have a hard time seeing this in very horizontal forms. Mechanically, it is part of what confuses them and traps them in forms that are too "flat." So while I have encouraged people to look for vertical forces, it is mostly because (1) there are some people explicitly saying that it effectively doesn't exist and (2) in that context it can be helpful to notice that it does and consider it in the appropriate context.

My own perspective is that of course the mechanics should involve a combination of these forces (I also accept "rotational" depending on what we mean). The appropriate context is natural human locomotion. What is "ideal" clearly requires more expert study and appears to involve a trial-and-error process for most players. I will always be open to updating my perspective and am always learning. If I have missed something in my clarification above I will aim to improve.

Also wanted to take the opportunity to clarify/add: note that there was some discussion of coupling or "torque" force earlier including some input from Chris Taylor. That topic is currently given a deliberately light touch in Fundamentals. I think in the sense golf instructors mean it, the "torque" force is typically when both feet are on the ground to facilitated a "coupling" force. I'm aware that there is even still some controversy on that topic in golf, and how much it generalizes to BH standstills is an interesting question. In the context of X-step, I think the intent in Fundamentals is more about the West-to-East force that occurs as the body is braced behind the plant foot with the pressure mostly/all on the front leg, and it's a consequence of good posture in a sense. So that section could benefit from some retooling over time and as data become available.

 

[timothy42b]

<snip>

I think it's important to remember that the disc golf swing is a three-dimensional movement and that all three axes (vertical, horizontal, and rotational) are essential. Trying to force the swing into a two-dimensional view will not give you the full picture.

I agree with you that the vertical component of the swing is important, but I don't think it's the only important component.
The best way to improve your disc golf swing is just to focus on all three axes of movement. For example, when I can do all three of these things in a coordinated and fluid movement, I am well on my way to throwing farther and more accurately.

Cheers,
Emilian

Homer Kelley believed there were 4 potential loading mechanisms in the ball golf swing, and that few people could coordinate all four. Any two compatible ones would be enough for most of us, and three would give additional advantage but diminishing returns.

At any rate, there are lots of Scott Lynn Swing Catalyst videos that somewhat address this topic. I found this one interesting.

 

[Brychanus]

Homer Kelley believed there were 4 potential loading mechanisms in the ball golf swing, and that few people could coordinate all four. Any two compatible ones would be enough for most of us, and three would give additional advantage but diminishing returns.

At any rate, there are lots of Scott Lynn Swing Catalyst videos that somewhat address this topic. I found this one interesting.

Hey Timothy, definitely going to watch this, thanks.

This just made me wonder: do you know anything about the broader legacy of Kelley's work? I saw this quote from his Wikipedia page and found it a little close to home for some reason

"It is often reported to be difficult to understand the content of the book, which is sometimes attributed to not following the reading instructions stated in the book. As it is a book primarily targeted at expert golf instructors, it is expected that regular golfers would consult an AI rather than study the book."

 

[CoachChris]

Homer Kelley believed there were 4 potential loading mechanisms in the ball golf swing, and that few people could coordinate all four. Any two compatible ones would be enough for most of us, and three would give additional advantage but diminishing returns.

At any rate, there are lots of Scott Lynn Swing Catalyst videos that somewhat address this topic. I found this one interesting.

The biggest thing to remember with ball golf, both feet are attached to the ground throughout the swing. Feet pushing in opposite directions have the ability to create torque. In disc golf, only the lead foot is applying force into the ground and there is little opportunity to create coupling torque. Some of the "power accumulators" in Homer's work, certainly apply to the forehand motion.

 

[timothy42b]

<snip>

"It is often reported to be difficult to understand the content of the book,

Holy understatement, Batman.

He was a thinker, not a coach. I think buried in his book are some insights nobody else had, hidden by the complexity. While he seems to have thought that an understanding of a swing, or a component of a swing was enough to make a difference, I think any coach will tell you that is not a "sufficient" condition, it isn't always a "necessary" condition.

I watched the 23 minute video Mike Adams did on Glider Spinner Launcher. My impression: way too many words, and way too simple a test. But I guess he gets some results. Scott Lynn is well respected though.

 

[CoachChris]

I watched the 23 minute video Mike Adams did on Glider Spinner Launcher. My impression: way too many words, and way too simple a test. But I guess he gets some results. Scott Lynn is well respected though.

It can be difficult to initially grasp all that Mike is saying because he is so deep into the individuality of a ball golf swing. Mike and Terry Rowles are on to additional metrics after a lot of time, money and research. Mike is likely the most knowledgeable golf teacher ever and has hands down given more golf lessons than anyone. He has incredible recall of nearly every professional swing. Scott is a good guy and understands ground forces well.