Drop-ins

[Justin Daniel]

When holing out from super close, I see many players placing the disc into the tray. Is there any rule regarding crossing your hand over the plane of the basket? In other words, is it legal to gently place the disc in the basket, or must you release the disc before it enters the basket?

(I'm a total beginner and have read through the rule book once. A more experienced player gave me a hard time for doing this, and I was happy to be corrected as I'm a noob. But when I asked about the rule, he couldn't really cite one. It didn't sound familiar, but I may have over looked it.)

 

[Stardoggy]

It is legal to place the disc into the basket in that fashion, as long as you are demonstrating balance in your motion.

 

[Jay Dub]

You can reach over the basket but the disc can not be touching your hand and metal at the same time. You have to drop it in not lay it in the basket.
Touching metal with your disc creates a supporting point in front of your lie.

 

[JC17393]

When holing out from super close, I see many players placing the disc into the tray. Is there any rule regarding crossing your hand over the plane of the basket? In other words, is it legal to gently place the disc in the basket, or must you release the disc before it enters the basket?

(I'm a total beginner and have read through the rule book once. A more experienced player gave me a hard time for doing this, and I was happy to be corrected as I'm a noob. But when I asked about the rule, he couldn't really cite one. It didn't sound familiar, but I may have over looked it.)

Perfectly acceptable to place the disc gently in the target from up close, provided you let go of the disc entirely so it can "come to rest" in the target.

That more experienced player is, to put it mildly, a moron. Either he doesn't know the rules as well as he thinks he does (sadly, a common occurrence) or he was messing with you knowing full well you were doing nothing wrong. I can't really decide which is worse.

 

[JC17393]

You can reach over the basket but the disc can not be touching your hand and metal at the same time. You have to drop it in not lay it in the basket.
Touching metal with your disc creates a supporting point in front of your lie.

This is incorrect. Supporting points only matter at the moment of release, not before and not really after either. And at the moment of release, your hand is not touching the disc. Therefore it doesn't matter if the disc is making contact with the basket or not.

 

[Jay Dub]

This is incorrect. Supporting points only matter at the moment of release, not before and not really after either. And at the moment of release, your hand is not touching the disc. Therefore it doesn't matter if the disc is making contact with the basket or not.

The disc touching the basket AND hand at the same time does not create a supporting point?

 

[Aim For The Chains]

I think you guys are saying the same thing.

You have to literally drop the disc in vs lean on the basket or disc to hole out.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Might be able to get support from the basket if your lie is under it as long as the part you hold onto is behind your lie.

 

[geoloseth]

I would have to argue that your hand touching the basket during a drop in would NOT constitute a fault for supporting point in the same way the rules state that during the throwing motion you may come in contact with obstacles in front of your lie. It would be incidental contact during the release of the disc, not an actual point of bodily support.

To the OP. While being new to the sport and the rules, when someone corrects you on something or states a rule, just ask them to show you the rule book so you can commit that rule to memory (in a nice way or course). This will help you learn all the rules by practice and reinforce the other persons grasp on exact wording to rules.

 

[JC17393]

The disc touching the basket AND hand at the same time does not create a supporting point?

It does. But if the disc is still in the hand, what difference does it make? If the disc hasn't been released, a throw hasn't yet been made and the player hasn't committed any rules violations.

It's only illegal to have a supporting point in front of the mark at the time of release. If the disc is released (at the moment of release...duh), there is no longer any contact between the hand and the disc and therefore the hand and the basket. No contact, no supporting point, no violation.

It is impossible to release the disc and still have contact with it at the same time. The two acts contradict one another.

Edit to add: geoloseth makes a good point regarding the incidental contact during a throwing motion rule as well.

 

[Jay Dub]

You have to literally drop the disc in vs lean on the basket or disc to hole out.

Might be able to get support from the basket if your lie is under it as long as the part you hold onto is behind your lie.

I agree with both of these.

 

[Jay Dub]

It does. But if the disc is still in the hand, what difference does it make? If the disc hasn't been released, a throw hasn't yet been made and the player hasn't committed any rules violations.

I agree it makes no difference, but a supporting point in front of the lie is still created and that technically is against the rules.

I'd never call it.

 

[JC17393]

I agree it makes no difference, but a supporting point in front of the lie is still created and that technically is against the rules.

I'd never call it.

How is it against the rules to have a supporting point in front of the lie before the disc is released?

This is akin to the "crane" putt illustrated in Chuck's stance video. As long as the supporting point (foot) in front of the marker is lifted before the disc is released, there is no violation. The mere act of letting go of the disc breaks the "supporting point" so that it does not exist at the time of release.

 

[DavidSauls]

In the silly nitpicking department, could it be argued that placing a disc in the basket, perhaps even dropping it in the basket, does not constitute a "throw" because it does not involve propulsion of the disc?

 

[JC17393]

In the silly nitpicking department, could it be argued that placing a disc in the basket, perhaps even dropping it in the basket, does not constitute a "throw" because it does not involve propulsion of the disc?

But according to 802.05, a throw isn't required to hole out: "In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray. It may be additionally supported by the pole." It doesn't say that the disc must be thrown and it must come to rest, only that it must be released and come to rest within the target.

I'd also say that the QA regarding a drop would come into play: "The throw begins when movement of the disc in the intended direction begins." You're arguably beginning the movement of the disc in its "intended direction" simply by placing it (and your hand) in the target with the intent of holing out.

 

[DavidSauls]

But according to 802.05, a throw isn't required to hole out: "In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains and/or the inner cylinder (bottom and inside wall) of the tray. It may be additionally supported by the pole." It doesn't say that the disc must be thrown and it must come to rest, only that it must be released and come to rest within the target.

I'd also say that the QA regarding a drop would come into play: "The throw begins when movement of the disc in the intended direction begins." You're arguably beginning the movement of the disc in its "intended direction" simply by placing it (and your hand) in the target with the intent of holing out.

Ah, but your score is the number of "throws...."

Just musing. I wouldn't actually make the argument.

 

[krupicka]

Dropping a disc not being propulsion was discussed in the USDGC thread back in the 2010-2011 time frame on the pdga forums.

 

[teemkey]

Two important things to remember:
(1) the player must release the disc;
(2) the disc must come to rest.

While it may never be called, the second point means a player has not holed out if the disc is picked up out of the basket before it stops moving.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Actually the disc needs to come (relatively) to rest in the target meaning it can be trapped in the chains securely while still swinging in heavier wind with the chains and be considered "holed out."

 

[Justin Daniel]

Lots of good responses here. Thanks. I think my question has been answered in that there is no specific rule about a player's hand crossing any plane (like goaltending in basketball). I will keep placing my disc into the basket, while maintaining balance, and not using the basket as a point of support at time of release. If my buddy tries to call me on it, I'll ask him to show me the rule.