Finding the hit, then building the throw

[Beetard]

I think towel snapping practice is starting to show me about the place my hand should be relative to my body at the hit.

...But it is more difficult with a disc. I can't find the feeling of the disc being heavy or the disc snapping out on a forward trajectory.

It is also much harder to aim it than I would the tip of a towel.

Is it worth it to practice away with towel drills, will the way they work actually carry over to throwing discs?

 

[JoshEpoo]

The towel drill just helps you find your release point or "the hit" and to some extent teaches you to accelerate through the wrist snap. It's usefulness ends there.

After that you need to get a disc in your hand and practice. I suggest a putter or midrange to start with. They force you to learn how to rip off your index finger and are unforgiving to OAT.

Start with slow shots. You don't have to throw hard to find the hit. You just have to accelerate at the right time. Your focus should just be on feeling what a good snap is like. You can tell if you are hitting it on 100 foot shots when your arm hardly moves but the disc comes zipping out on a laser line from your wrist extension.

 

[masterbeato]

the only way to feel the weight of a disc, is to feel the weight of a disc. the towel drill may show you wrist action, and timing, but won't show you how to leverage a disc.

 

[Beetard]

I feel like I am getting closer to understanding. Every single power generating mechanism needs to fire as the disc is pivoting.

I've been studying the top view Avery Jenkins slow motion video for a while now. The very beginning of facing up is the final moment of the disc being in the thrower's hand.

For example, the hip turn is completed way early in the throw and its power is saved up until the hit. At this moment, the front or back of the plant foot is lifted and the plant foot begins to turn, letting other things turn and adding a little bit of exit speed.

But that is building the throw stuff I don't need to concern myself with yet. What I did take away from the Avery video that is relevant to me is that the hit is when the arm is almost straight and about 40 degrees short of the line. This is the position where wrist extension and disc pivot need to happen. Wrist extension and disc pivot happen way earlier than I had thought.

When I used to practice, I was trying to get the disc to rip like 45 degrees past where I wanted to throw it and be faced up before it came out. Really it's no wonder my toss was so crappy.

I know now what I must do is throw from just short of the proper hit position learn how to grip the disc so that it can actually pivot and sling around my finger.

 

[Star Shark]

I found that feeling the hit is alot easier with a midrange, possibly due to the diameter of the disc. Then you just have to transfer that timing over to your driver throw.

 

[DookieHyzer]

I found that feeling the hit is alot easier with a midrange, possibly due to the diameter of the disc. Then you just have to transfer that timing over to your driver throw.

I agree, i was able to feel the snap at the hit using mids before I was ever able to feel it with wider rim drivers. Even with the wider rim drivers I used lighter weights at first. I was also using understable drivers; when the snap started coming at the hit I had to get some overstable discs in the bag right away to control the turn. I have a few over stable stable discs in my bag now in 168-172g range and a Beast 174g that I can manage. Start with a light mid and huck em til you get it done everytime and then move up.

 

[garublador1]

I found that feeling the hit is alot easier with a midrange, possibly due to the diameter of the disc. Then you just have to transfer that timing over to your driver throw.

I find this to be true as well. It's way easier with a mid than even a speed 9 disc. I thought it was because of the narrower rim, and that's probably part of it, but I also found it easier with a mid than a putter. I think the wide rim might have something to do with it as well. My guess is the larger moment makes getting the feel of "leveraging" the disc easier.

Has anyone tried the hammer pound drills with an Epic? That might be an interesting way to see if uneven weight distribution would make getting the feel for leveraging the disc easier.

 

[JR]

A Teebird at speed 7 is even thinner rimmed than speed 9 drivers but some of the faster discs are also thinner in height so they grip almost equally for me. Mids tend to be flat and you can squeeze harder thumb to index finger and vice versa thanks to the leverage. Even with short fingers like mine. So yes thin mids are the easiest discs to use for finding the hit. Leverage is another factor but it may be surprising. Weight distribution makes things quite surprising according to a test mafa did. Wizards and Ultra-Stars are surprising compared to drivers in weight distribution being so heavily tilted to the outside edge.

 

[DookieHyzer]

I found that feeling the hit is alot easier with a midrange, possibly due to the diameter of the disc. Then you just have to transfer that timing over to your driver throw.

I find this to be true as well. It's way easier with a mid than even a speed 9 disc. I thought it was because of the narrower rim, and that's probably part of it, but I also found it easier with a mid than a putter. I think the wide rim might have something to do with it as well. My guess is the larger moment makes getting the feel of "leveraging" the disc easier.

Has anyone tried the hammer pound drills with an Epic? That might be an interesting way to see if uneven weight distribution would make getting the feel for leveraging the disc easier.

I noticed with wider rimmed discs that my release was early and everything started left (RHBH) and continued left. My grip pressure was less at at the more open position needed to hold the wide rim. I started using a lighter disc and that helped until my grip strengthened, then I gradually increased the weight of the disc.

The drivers and mids had a similar feel in the hand, just the width of the rim felt different, the putt/approach discs had such a different feel versus the wider rims that they didn't equate. I sought help early on for throwing technique from a local more experienced player and I got the usual; "go learn to throw the Roc 300' and then come talk to me". I watched some videos online from Master B, Mark Ellis, and Dave D, there was enough instruction about everything from putting to driving that that coupled with a few articles on DG REview about feel and snap at the hit that I was able to train in the right direction until I started feeling it and repeating it.

 

[CJ1998]

I'll take a shot in the dark at it.

The key to feeling the weight of the disc is to relax the grip early in the throwing motion. If you're too tense, you'll never feel it. This idea will probably result in some early release but I think It's worth a try in the practice field.

 

[dgdave]

I found a very storng hit by delaying everything as long as possible. Star your pull a split second later, start your turn a split second later, etc. When ever I feel it REALLY strong, the whole motion starting from the X Step seems in slow mo and I see the disc at full back extension very clearly.

Here is a vid of one of my best feeling throws ever. I was lucky enough to get it on film. This was a fresh P PD about 460-475ft just ever so slightly up hill. This is from the period of my longest, most powerful, most controlled drives of my life. I was getting close to hitting 500ft pretty consistanly for about 3 months.

http://img190.imageshack.us/i/1013915.mp4/

You can see how its- slow, slow, slow, slow, BOOM!, controled follow through.

 

[Beetard]

The ice age finally ended and I got out in a field. I made good progress because I changed my concept of grip.

What I used do was just lock all of my fingers onto the rim and pull the disc tight against my palm. This allows no "levering of the disc"

Now I'm trying to grip it like it's an aerobie ring; like there is no rim -Just trying to hold the flight plate between my index and thumb. The points that touch if I were to hold a pencil like I was going to write with it, that is the workhorse of this grip- the pad of the thumb and the pad of the index right near the nail. This grip feels really uncomfortable and weak, but it lets the disc move in my hand the way I think it is supposed to.

 

[scoopa]

Sounds like you found it.

 

[josser]

I found a very storng hit by delaying everything as long as possible. Star your pull a split second later, start your turn a split second later, etc. When ever I feel it REALLY strong, the whole motion starting from the X Step seems in slow mo and I see the disc at full back extension very clearly.

Here is a vid of one of my best feeling throws ever. I was lucky enough to get it on film. This was a fresh P PD about 460-475ft just ever so slightly up hill. This is from the period of my longest, most powerful, most controlled drives of my life. I was getting close to hitting 500ft pretty consistanly for about 3 months.

http://img190.imageshack.us/i/1013915.mp4/

You can see how its- slow, slow, slow, slow, BOOM!, controled follow through.

Bah. That looks far too effortless.

 

[dgdave]

That's when you're doing it right!

 

[JR]

The ice age finally ended and I got out in a field. I made good progress because I changed my concept of grip.

What I used do was just lock all of my fingers onto the rim and pull the disc tight against my palm. This allows no "levering of the disc"

Now I'm trying to grip it like it's an aerobie ring; like there is no rim -Just trying to hold the flight plate between my index and thumb. The points that touch if I were to hold a pencil like I was going to write with it, that is the workhorse of this grip- the pad of the thumb and the pad of the index right near the nail. This grip feels really uncomfortable and weak, but it lets the disc move in my hand the way I think it is supposed to.

I was at the mash the disc tightly to the palm and never let it pivot phase for the longest time. The grip needs to be lose enough to allow the disc to pivot until the index finger and the thumb are barely touching the disc at at least four o'clock. More is better. I don't have powerful enough fingers yet for Chris Voigt (and dgdave) type of of pinching you described. I do get slips with less than full power that way. Have you read the trigger pull grip thread? There is a halfway point between a trigger pull and Voigt type of grip which allows a very free pivot and enough cleanness of release and grip strength for the hardest throws without slips in about 23F and above. YMMV according to the disc you're using, hand and finger size and strength plus the overall power you're generating.

The best throws i've had feel like nothing. Too effortless. That's how important timing is and i don't have it down to that much accuracy and exactness that i'd get those effortless rips more often than every now and then. No way of using those for shot planning considering how freak accident rare they are for me. URGH!

 

[zj10021]

JR, after doing some recent "re-training" with the trigger pull, I am more convinced that this is a vital tool for people to use in helping understand how to feel the weight of the disc and the pivot. Every time I go a round where I can't seem to hit it, I go back and do some field work with the trigger pull. This really helps me feel the disc pivot at the last second. I think the way we presented it made it very hard to people to read and a lot of people got lost in our lengthy and technical discussions. I have started teaching the trigger pull to some of my fellow Texas State University students and they immediately were able to at least understand the concept. I will be doing a lot of experiments on them to see if this truly is a helpful in developing the hit.

This trigger pull grips creates a similar feel to what Blurr is talking about with an Aerobie ring. I never thought of it like, but it is pretty much the same idea. I don't use the trigger pull during competition, it is simply a warm-up drill to help me feel the disc. For those interested here is the link to the ramblings of JR and myself on this subject: http://discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19767&hilit=trigger+pull

 

[JR]

I was stuck with learning the wrist snap prior to loosening up the grip and making it possible for the first time for the disc to pivot before it ripped of the fingers. So it can definitely be a deal breaker to squash the disc into the palm. If you do that most of the sekret jedi things Blake wrote of amount to nothing. I think we need a simple video slow motion of what a disc pivot looks like. It's too cold outside and too dark inside for me to do it. Going outside risks breaking the camera so no thanks this will have to wait. You don't even need a trigger pull grip to demonstrate disc pivot. Or the cut disc Bradley Walker used in his snap video.

Check this for a short simple approach to getting a disc to pivot and feeling it at no speed drill:

If one extends the arm straight (no elbow bend) then cocks back the wrist with a disc in the hand with the Voigt grip and actively swings the wrist to straight or a little right of it and tries to stop the wrist the disc will pivot if you maintain a loose enough of a grip. That's the feel you are looking for and need to recreate in an actual long drive. That mandates loose arm muscles and a loose grip until the disc has started to pivot and is off of your palm. It's so simple there's nothing more to teaching the importance and execution of the principle of the disc pivot. There's of course a lot more one can do to make it a more forceful snap. End of drill description.

A hint: If you can't get the disc to pivot fast with this drill with the muscle looseness of just having woken up you need to seriously strengthen your wrists and learn to move the wrist fast by repeated snaps. I suggest short arm putting with a wrist snap trying to sink actual putts at long ranges to a basket. This helps to teach the nervous system to guide loose muscles faster than ever before and it teaches wrist control and turns some of the muscle cells from semi fast to fast. All of which increase distance in droves while you learn to putt form long distance. Two lunches for one drill. I've been told that three months minimum is usually needed for cell changes in detectable amounts. The good thins is that there's a lot to of distance be gained from muscle guidance control alone and that takes way less time than three months. Based on me learning physical execution of a completely new style slowly and getting results with three sessions of a few hours each. If we were face to face i think many would have results in minutes for increased putting distance if they haven't used the wrist actively to snap the disc forward.

Of course some people might learn better from the mental image if holding a piece of paper or other flat things without rims like Aerobie rings. People learn differently but that mental image does not tell how it feels to have something pivot between the fingers or how loose the fingers and arm muscles need to be to achieve that in a DG drive.

 

[DookieHyzer]

The ice age finally ended and I got out in a field. I made good progress because I changed my concept of grip.

What I used do was just lock all of my fingers onto the rim and pull the disc tight against my palm. This allows no "levering of the disc"

Now I'm trying to grip it like it's an aerobie ring; like there is no rim -Just trying to hold the flight plate between my index and thumb. The points that touch if I were to hold a pencil like I was going to write with it, that is the workhorse of this grip- the pad of the thumb and the pad of the index right near the nail. This grip feels really uncomfortable and weak, but it lets the disc move in my hand the way I think it is supposed to.

It took me a few monthes to get it right, but I have ended up with a varient of Ken Climos stacked finger grip. It wasn't so much that his grip is the be all end all, though you can't argue his results, it was what you have described as finding the pivot in your grip. I think Climo explains it well when he says that you isolate the pivot point down to your thumb and index finger and take the chance of having four pivot points out of the equation by freeing up your other three fingers.

Here is the vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAV8kKURKaw

 

[josser]

That's when you're doing it right!

I know.

You =
Me = still working hard to figure it out