Do any of you reviewers get enraged PMs from people who disagree with your reviews. I got this PM from someone who was not in agreement with one of my reviews. I've gotten the hate mail before, but I thought this one was best because he just joined and made up a user name punned of my own, just to send me a PM. I actually hope he takes some of my response to heart, but fear he just vented and is now gone, kinda like Kayser Soze.
you're review on the winter park co. course is complete b.s. it sounds like the course beat you and your 922 rating all over the mountain.1st of all it was a brand new course in 09' and has seen tons of work, tee boxes, big map @ hole 1 along with printed maps showing dist & elev. change.there are only a few blind holes(most baskets can be seen with a few steps away from the tee).a lot of the tees are purposely located on flat, smooth ground. remember it is the ROCKY mtns. trees and shrubs in the tees? sorry the staff didn't cater to you @ the base. are the directions not straight forward? get a ticket and take up the arrow chair-did you really feel the need for someone to hold your hand?you should be used to tight technical holes-being from wi. Since you're such an expert, i'll pay you to redesign the course next time you're close by. since we didn't utilize the terrain to your liking-in fact i'll buy you dinner personally. there are a lot of respected people who feel your review is hogwash, and wonder what your personal problem is here-you must of played this course right after favre signed with the vikes, or your girlfriend just dumped you. and you say you belive in disc golf karma? i'm guessing you were far from under par, and probably lack the conditioning to play this course. it amazes me how many whiners have evolved in our sport over the years-part of the growing pains i guess.and do you really think a corporate owned ski area is going to spend tons of money on this? yea, that's the corporate world for you-are you shocked? so don't go diissin' all the locals who busted ass to get this course going-because with the exception of natural t-boxes , most everyone has thoroughly enjoyed this course!!!
I replied twice, here they are in order...
First reply
I think it's awesome that you joined and created a user name just to bash me. Thanks for the flattery, but it's not necessary. When I played the course, it was very below average. It just lacked good design overall with poor placement of pins and tees in relation to natural obstacles on the mountain that would force good shot selection based on player skill levels. I've played 130 (some not listed on this site) courses all across the US and have had numerous discussions and meetings with some of the top designers in the country. The courses I designed have even been praised by many of these designers. WP, CO has a below average design and was horribly rough around the edges with the lack of tees and so many rocks and yes brush in the tee pad area. No it didn't beat me up. My 'gina wasn't packed full of sand. And in no way do I lack the conditioning to play the course. I love challenge and grueling terrain associated with a course and a workout. I saw that it had been redesigned, so when I played it, it was new, and now may have changed. Everyone who reads a review takes when it was written into account. Update the current condition and course description instead of bashing me. Make everyone else aware of what changes and improvments you have made. Be productive in drawing people in to play your course. My review is an opinion remember. It's also not gonna change until I play it again. I'm no whiner, but am opinionated, and have plenty experience and variety under my belt.
By listing negatives, cons, and my opinions of the course, believe me I mean NO HARM against all the locals who put their time, effort, money, and blood into building a course. I understand completely the effort and dedication it takes to do so. I run a SMALL club here. We have done 95% of the installation of our 27 hole course, with 2 tees on all, multiple pins on 9, and a third tee on another 9. For the first 4 years of the course we didn't have an ATV or even chainsaws!!! We moved trees, rocks, logs, earth, baskest, 80 concrete buckets etc all by wheelbarrow or by hand, all up and down the hill, and cut down trees with handsaws!!!!! By we, I mean me and 3-4 guys at a time AT BEST, and at times my wife helped where she could when the kids didn't demand her attention because I was dedicating mine to the course.
Thanks for the flattery just in taking the time to bash me. It's not doing any good though. Take the time to update your course page. Be productive about it. HONESTLY, I truly understand and appreciate the hard work of local disc golfers wanting to install something unique and amazing in their volunteer time. Don't let my review take that away from you. It's personal attacks from people like you who disagree with reviews that take away from the good this site has to offer. I disagree with a lot of reviews of my local course. What it does is drive me to ask the reviewer for more background or detail, and then make improvements at the course.
Who knows if you'll even get this, or if you've bashed me and moved on.
Tim K (not 1 whiner)
Second Reply
I updated my review. Your anger made me go back and look at where I could have elaborated more, or where I may have been too harsh. Basically I just made a few more comments in the Other Thoughts section, but most of the pros and cons are still applicable, and of the 65 courses I've reviewed, it still stands at a 2-disc course. Level tees especially, and some tee signs are somewhat simple things that would indeed elevate it to a 3.0 rating. Maybe as it beats in a little and if some pins were relocated (really a few of them were poorly installed in lackluster locations) it could get a 3.5. I don't think it would ever get a 4.0 without good pin locations and alternates, two good sets of level tees, and maybe a few more holes (just 20 when I played it, 27 would be able to utilize more of that great terrain out there and offer more variety), maybe even lead you all the way to the bottom of the hill where you could just walk over and ride the lift up again!
Maybe I'm soft for having updated my review, but I did see some flaws in it and thought I should elaborate a little. My reviews do lean a bit toward commenting on design, and maybe that's off base. Maybe the design is what it is and cannot or will not change. But to me it's still a problem, if an experienced player or designer was not consulted, why not? If things, simple things, can change, why not? But then again, these are just my opinions and I'm in no way perfect.
BTW, a 2.0-disc course is "Reasonable". Not like I gave it a 0 or 0.5. I can see some extremists going the other way and dishing out a 4, MAYBE a 4.5, but don't think anyone would go to the lengths of 5-disc for that course!
you're review on the winter park co. course is complete b.s. it sounds like the course beat you and your 922 rating all over the mountain.1st of all it was a brand new course in 09' and has seen tons of work, tee boxes, big map @ hole 1 along with printed maps showing dist & elev. change.there are only a few blind holes(most baskets can be seen with a few steps away from the tee).a lot of the tees are purposely located on flat, smooth ground. remember it is the ROCKY mtns. trees and shrubs in the tees? sorry the staff didn't cater to you @ the base. are the directions not straight forward? get a ticket and take up the arrow chair-did you really feel the need for someone to hold your hand?you should be used to tight technical holes-being from wi. Since you're such an expert, i'll pay you to redesign the course next time you're close by. since we didn't utilize the terrain to your liking-in fact i'll buy you dinner personally. there are a lot of respected people who feel your review is hogwash, and wonder what your personal problem is here-you must of played this course right after favre signed with the vikes, or your girlfriend just dumped you. and you say you belive in disc golf karma? i'm guessing you were far from under par, and probably lack the conditioning to play this course. it amazes me how many whiners have evolved in our sport over the years-part of the growing pains i guess.and do you really think a corporate owned ski area is going to spend tons of money on this? yea, that's the corporate world for you-are you shocked? so don't go diissin' all the locals who busted ass to get this course going-because with the exception of natural t-boxes , most everyone has thoroughly enjoyed this course!!!
I replied twice, here they are in order...
First reply
I think it's awesome that you joined and created a user name just to bash me. Thanks for the flattery, but it's not necessary. When I played the course, it was very below average. It just lacked good design overall with poor placement of pins and tees in relation to natural obstacles on the mountain that would force good shot selection based on player skill levels. I've played 130 (some not listed on this site) courses all across the US and have had numerous discussions and meetings with some of the top designers in the country. The courses I designed have even been praised by many of these designers. WP, CO has a below average design and was horribly rough around the edges with the lack of tees and so many rocks and yes brush in the tee pad area. No it didn't beat me up. My 'gina wasn't packed full of sand. And in no way do I lack the conditioning to play the course. I love challenge and grueling terrain associated with a course and a workout. I saw that it had been redesigned, so when I played it, it was new, and now may have changed. Everyone who reads a review takes when it was written into account. Update the current condition and course description instead of bashing me. Make everyone else aware of what changes and improvments you have made. Be productive in drawing people in to play your course. My review is an opinion remember. It's also not gonna change until I play it again. I'm no whiner, but am opinionated, and have plenty experience and variety under my belt.
By listing negatives, cons, and my opinions of the course, believe me I mean NO HARM against all the locals who put their time, effort, money, and blood into building a course. I understand completely the effort and dedication it takes to do so. I run a SMALL club here. We have done 95% of the installation of our 27 hole course, with 2 tees on all, multiple pins on 9, and a third tee on another 9. For the first 4 years of the course we didn't have an ATV or even chainsaws!!! We moved trees, rocks, logs, earth, baskest, 80 concrete buckets etc all by wheelbarrow or by hand, all up and down the hill, and cut down trees with handsaws!!!!! By we, I mean me and 3-4 guys at a time AT BEST, and at times my wife helped where she could when the kids didn't demand her attention because I was dedicating mine to the course.
Thanks for the flattery just in taking the time to bash me. It's not doing any good though. Take the time to update your course page. Be productive about it. HONESTLY, I truly understand and appreciate the hard work of local disc golfers wanting to install something unique and amazing in their volunteer time. Don't let my review take that away from you. It's personal attacks from people like you who disagree with reviews that take away from the good this site has to offer. I disagree with a lot of reviews of my local course. What it does is drive me to ask the reviewer for more background or detail, and then make improvements at the course.
Who knows if you'll even get this, or if you've bashed me and moved on.
Tim K (not 1 whiner)
Second Reply
I updated my review. Your anger made me go back and look at where I could have elaborated more, or where I may have been too harsh. Basically I just made a few more comments in the Other Thoughts section, but most of the pros and cons are still applicable, and of the 65 courses I've reviewed, it still stands at a 2-disc course. Level tees especially, and some tee signs are somewhat simple things that would indeed elevate it to a 3.0 rating. Maybe as it beats in a little and if some pins were relocated (really a few of them were poorly installed in lackluster locations) it could get a 3.5. I don't think it would ever get a 4.0 without good pin locations and alternates, two good sets of level tees, and maybe a few more holes (just 20 when I played it, 27 would be able to utilize more of that great terrain out there and offer more variety), maybe even lead you all the way to the bottom of the hill where you could just walk over and ride the lift up again!
Maybe I'm soft for having updated my review, but I did see some flaws in it and thought I should elaborate a little. My reviews do lean a bit toward commenting on design, and maybe that's off base. Maybe the design is what it is and cannot or will not change. But to me it's still a problem, if an experienced player or designer was not consulted, why not? If things, simple things, can change, why not? But then again, these are just my opinions and I'm in no way perfect.
BTW, a 2.0-disc course is "Reasonable". Not like I gave it a 0 or 0.5. I can see some extremists going the other way and dishing out a 4, MAYBE a 4.5, but don't think anyone would go to the lengths of 5-disc for that course!
