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Foot Fault 2019

I believe that's correct and it's why jump putts are seldom called and shouldn't be. If watching foot, hand, & disc in real time can't be analyzed with 100% accuracy without sophisticated electronics & agreed upon, why should a player be penalized?

One might say that since everyone receives a potential benefit from 'border-line' jump-putts, no one (or very few) call(s) them. Add to that, the inevitable 'discussion' (read: argument) and there is an additional incentive for non-calls even in egregious instances.

If the poster you were responding to were 'honorable', he would not jump-putt because of his own self-admitted doubt. His respect for himself, the game and his colleagues/play-mates would inevitably lead to this conclusion. Moreover, this conclusion is actually the correct one because he would also realize that his 'borderline' jump-putts actually force others to police his play - a form of gamesmanship (dishonorable as well). He might also jump-putt ONLY once he was personally certain that his jump-putts were all technically correct.

When a disc is OB, it's cut and dry, binary. Jump-putts (legal and otherwise) are not, hence the 'slop'. So what we really have with jump-putts is a 'letter of the law vs. spirit of the law' situation, and a player's behavior reflects their hierarchy of values with respect to themselves, the game and others. Those wishing jump-putts be banned desire the rule-makers to make it a binary situation, like OBs, where no intercession, monitor or ethical decision is required.

How much benefit of the doubt you give another is an individual choice, just like your jump-putts.
 
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If the poster you were responding to were 'honorable', he would not jump-putt because of his own self-admitted doubt. His respect for himself, the game and his colleagues/play-mates would inevitably lead to this conclusion. Moreover, this conclusion is actually the correct one because he would also realize that his 'borderline' jump-putts actually force others to police his play - a form of gamesmanship (dishonorable as well). He might also jump-putt ONLY once he was personally certain that his jump-putts were all technically correct.

Ouch! My thin skin has been abraded. Somehow I haven't reached that inevitable conclusion you referenced. I take pride in my self-policing and playing within the rules. In my defense, I said "sometimes." Good thing I could be honorable by calling it on myself if it happened during a tournament or other scored round.

I take it you want the rules changed? I wouldn't disagree, but the devil's in the details, and I think that thread is somewhere else.

I'd love to play a round with you some time and see if you think I'm honorable. As far as stance violations go, I have a feeling more are committed both in the roughest rough and near fairway obstacles than on greens outside the 10-meter mark. I'll have to go experiment some more, but I tend to agree with the video above that jump putts are only effective when done legally.
 
Ouch! My thin skin has been abraded. Somehow I haven't reached that inevitable conclusion you referenced. I take pride in my self-policing and playing within the rules. In my defense, I said "sometimes." Good thing I could be honorable by calling it on myself if it happened during a tournament or other scored round.

I take it you want the rules changed? I wouldn't disagree, but the devil's in the details, and I think that thread is somewhere else.

I'd love to play a round with you some time and see if you think I'm honorable. As far as stance violations go, I have a feeling more are committed both in the roughest rough and near fairway obstacles than on greens outside the 10-meter mark. I'll have to go experiment some more, but I tend to agree with the video above that jump putts are only effective when done legally.

why do you care what i think? (i don't believe you do)
few men ever admit they are scoundrels, especially if they are one. i'm not calling you a scoundrel, just pointing out a fact of life. in the material world, each man must judge his own actions, but it would be nice if you actually responded to my arguments, instead of a sarcastic mea culpa.

my intention wasn't to make you a 'personal example', but you opened the door and i wished to explain the rationale of others who feel that players take advantage of (game the) the rules - gamesmen not sportsmen. moreover, the reason these putting styles arose in the first place was players who deliberately look for 'slop' in the ruleset they could take advantage of, but no matter (the video game equivalent would be called 'an exploit'). i also wished to counterpoint the fellow who made a specious claim about the reasons no calls be made in the case of jump-putts; he may be right, but not entirely so...

as for calling it on yourself, if you can't tell or aren't certain, how can you make any call?

as for lindahl's video, this is one of his self-admitted pet peeves. he doesn't demonstrate command of the other side's argument, preferring instead to resort to sarcasm and mockery. fair enough, but that's not an argument. i am not persuaded. i believe he's in error and i have explained why. the logic of the rules means that a legal jump-putt is an 'effective' one - circular logic on his part.

lastly is the question of social proof. google that, if you don't what it is already, re-read my first comment on this thread and apply it to the jump-putt 'controversy' (or tempest in a teapot if you will)...if you're ever in charlotte, let's schedule a meet-up and we can 'go around' in a different way...i hear we've got some decent courses around here...as for me, i may be wrong, but i'm not lying, so i'll assume that's everyone else's position as well...fwiw.
 
why do you care what i think? (i don't believe you do)
few men ever admit they are scoundrels, especially if they are one. i'm not calling you a scoundrel, just pointing out a fact of life. in the material world, each man must judge his own actions, but it would be nice if you actually responded to my arguments, instead of a sarcastic mea culpa.

my intention wasn't to make you a 'personal example', but you opened the door and i wished to explain the rationale of others who feel that players take advantage of (game the) the rules - gamesmen not sportsmen. moreover, the reason these putting styles arose in the first place was players who deliberately look for 'slop' in the ruleset they could take advantage of, but no matter (the video game equivalent would be called 'an exploit'). i also wished to counterpoint the fellow who made a specious claim about the reasons no calls be made in the case of jump-putts; he may be right, but not entirely so...

as for calling it on yourself, if you can't tell or aren't certain, how can you make any call?

as for lindahl's video, this is one of his self-admitted pet peeves. he doesn't demonstrate command of the other side's argument, preferring instead to resort to sarcasm and mockery. fair enough, but that's not an argument. i am not persuaded. i believe he's in error and i have explained why. the logic of the rules means that a legal jump-putt is an 'effective' one - circular logic on his part.

lastly is the question of social proof. google that, if you don't what it is already, re-read my first comment on this thread and apply it to the jump-putt 'controversy' (or tempest in a teapot if you will)...if you're ever in charlotte, let's schedule a meet-up and we can 'go around' in a different way...i hear we've got some decent courses around here...as for me, i may be wrong, but i'm not lying, so i'll assume that's everyone else's position as well...fwiw.

Sarcastic mea culpa is one of my strengths, though genuine mea culpa is up there as well. I'm glad you detected the sarcasm. Meanwhile, I can try to respond to some arguments.

I suppose I do care what you think, though I won't bend over backwards to earn your approval. You have been playing disc golf much longer than me, in an area with rich DG heritage, you formulate your arguments well, and you don't make personal attacks. But only I know how much I question the legality of my jump-putts, and with that knowledge I'm comfortable continuing to utilize and improve them.

As far as jump putts, I suppose the social proof concept has an application in that I started jump putting because I saw others doing it and jumped on board. For me, most of my "jump putts" are layups from out to 100' or so, where my aim is to leave myself as short a putt as possible. The jump putt has a natural feel for me, and I'll admit the disc leaves my hand very close to when my foot leaves ground. I have a background in basketball, and it does remind me of violations such as traveling which can also be difficult to call at times, but where a player can be reasonably comfortable they're not traveling with experience and practice. In practice, my jump-putts look just as good (or bad?) as anyone I've played with, so I've never really questioned their legitimacy. Meanwhile, I'll go work on my technique and get some cameras going to convince myself that they're not borderline. ;)

The essence of your argument, as applied to myself, was in the matter of enforcing the rules and casting the burden of enforcement on others if I'm not sure. I see this argument though I believe it applies just as much to any other violation in disc golf. Even if I were to call a stance violation on myself (or on someone else), it would need confirmation by a fellow player. I don't see much difference between violations, though in my personal tournament experience I've had far more experience with players missing their lie egregiously in the fairway or while in really nasty rough.

The bigger question, of course, is the spirit/letter of the law issue. The trick is that a 35' putt really has nothing in common with a fairway or approach shot, so defining stance to apply to both is difficult. I believe I suggested on another thread that the circle be extended to 20m, but that's still an unsatisfactory solution. In short, I'm not sure it's possible to pick adequate letters to match the spirit of the law (and I'm not sure anyone in disc golf really knows what the spirit of this rule is...) Maybe we need to define putting differently, or think out of the box in some other fashion.

As far as the gamesmanship thing, I don't know that I share your concern though I respect the sentiment, try to be an honorable competitor, and have no desire to find "loopholes" or thumb my nose at the rules. (Nevertheless, I think there are many cases where our rules could be better written, and I also recognize that many disc golfers don't prioritize knowing the rules well.) If you're playing a competitive sport (or game), shouldn't you be expected to choose a method of play that is most advantageous within the rules? Again, maybe this is rooted in my background in officiated sports, where burden of enforcement was not on any players. (Do you happen to have a golf or ultimate background? Those are theoretically "honor" sports.) My actions are largely a result of doing as others do within the confines of imperfect regulations.

Most importantly, I'd love to play some disc golf with you in Charlotte (or anywhere). Nevin quickly became one of my favorite courses around Thanksgiving of last year. I made it to Reedy Creek and Hornet's Nest as well, but I've probably only scratched the surface. I don't have a return trip planned, but I'll let you know if I make it down to Renny gold or to give Nevin another try.
 
Sarcastic mea culpa is one of my strengths, though genuine mea culpa is up there as well. I'm glad you detected the sarcasm. Meanwhile, I can try to respond to some arguments.

I don't believe the basketball analogy is quite tight enough. First, because there's a distinct advantage to shooting over a defender and second, in the 'perfect' jump-shot, the ball is released at the height of the jump. However, regarding 'athleticism' and the 'evolution' of the sport, I have several observations.

I contend that in basketball, the generally more athletic style of play pioneered by black athletes parallels other 'social progress', music and art phenomena, but was primarily a marketing plan implemented by string-pullers in that sport. This more improvisational style came at the cost of a more liberal interpretation of the rules, with more 'judgement call' situations and is said to be more entertaining, but when officiating determines outcomes so frequently, I am not convinced that it is really a 'sport', rather it's 'showtime'. An extreme example of 'sports showtime' would be pro wrestling. Regarding disc golf, I see it moving in this direction, as the desires for personal enrichment sometimes take precedent over the game. Al Davis, former owner of the LA Raiders, has a famous quote which sums up that mentality quite well.

Really though, the spirit of game vs. the letter of the rules seems to be one of those irreducible 'open' questions, like nature vs. nurture. People will debate it until the end of time. Hopefully others realize that the purpose of debate is to sharpen ourselves against others, even when we disagree, resulting in improvement for all concerned. That being said, most people are not persuaded by facts, reason and logic. People, in general, are swayed by emotion, just as they are motivated by their drives, no matter how stoic they appear.

My experience in disc sports tells me that some will do anything to enrich themselves; this observation includes players at one time regarded as top professionals. It's merely human nature, but a true sportsman would never put himself above the game. His hierarchy of values prohibit it, as he is servant to the 'law'. That being said, we are all at differing points on the circle and we are all imperfect, so I leave 'judgement' to a higher power.

I suggest you learn more about the concept of gamesmanship - it is not a deliberate rule-breaking strategy, rather it is a deliberate use of the 'slop' areas in the rules to gain an 'unfair' advantage over one's opponents. Because rules are never actually broken, no infractions are called, but it reflects a disrespectful sleazy attitude on the part of practitioners, where they place themselves and their concerns first. Most people have played with fellows like this; the fellow who makes a noise at the critical moment - consistently, always seems to be standing in your peripheral vision, moving slightly, during a putt, trash-talkers, etc. In fact, I believe that's the reason some players use headphones nowadays, to eliminate or reduce some of these distractions. So no, people should NOT use ANY method that's within the rules that is advantageous. That being said, not every round one plays is a serious competitive round; lots of things are acceptable in casual rounds with friends you are familiar with - serious competition is not the only reason we play.

My experience in sports started with the normal team sports most boys play. Baseball was my favorite. In high school, I played ultimate and disc golf, gradually developing into an overall frisbee player, with an emphasis on golf, but DDC is still my favorite disc sport. I also worked in the 'real' golf industry for many years. fwiw.
 
Foot fault? I wish jump putting would get banned.

Why?

You don't ban defense in basketball because people foul people doing it. There is risk in playing defense - if you don't do it properly, your opponent get's an unguarded shot.

You don't ban blocking in football because people hold people doing it. There is risk in blocking - if you don't do it properly, your offense is backed up 10 yards.

You don't ban poke checks in hockey because people trip and hook people doing it. There is risk in stick checks - if you don't do it properly, you lose a player for 2 minutes.

So......same logic....

You don't ban jump / step putting in disc golf because people foot fault doing it. There is risk in jump / step putting - if you don't do it properly, you are given a stroke.
 
Why?

You don't ban jump / step putting in disc golf because people foot fault doing it. There is risk in jump / step putting - if you don't do it properly, you are given a stroke.

True, in a perfect world where there are refs like in the other sports you reference. When was the last time anyone was actually called on a jump putt, much less seconded?

Until we have marshals/refs, these illegal jumps are going to keep happening. Nobody seems to want to be that person to make the call and then have to worry the rest of the round on retribution spite calls.

I'd like to see jump/step putts banned also, to me it just doesn't seem kosher to the rest of the game. Every other throw has to be completed behind the mini, but jump putts? nah, lets see how much we can get away with.
 
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Until we have marshals/refs, these illegal jumps are going to keep happening. Nobody seems to want to be that person to make the call and then have to worry the rest of the round on retribution spite calls.

That is a cultural problem, then. Not a rules / staffing problem.

Not only should we be calling it, we should be calling people on not watching.
 
That is a cultural problem, then. Not a rules / staffing problem.

Not only should we be calling it, we should be calling people on not watching.

How would that work? The whole card stands behind every player before they throw? Gonna make for some really long rounds!:p



Why would there be any worry about retribution spite calls if the player is not violating the rules?

Just to get in a players head. We all know at least one rule Nazi that likes to remind you how close you may have come to an infraction, just to mess with you. It totally kills the vibe on the card and lets you know you're being watched, (maybe a little closer than you originally thought).
 
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That is a cultural problem, then. Not a rules / staffing problem.

Not only should we be calling it, we should be calling people on not watching.

How many illegal jump putts have you called over the years? How many have you seen in real time that you have thought might be illegal but have been unable to definitively say?

When a rule is for all intents and purposes unenforceable in practice the problem is indeed about the rule.

There is plenty of cultural problem as well with respect to numerous other issues but this one is an issue with the rule on top of the culture.
 
Why would there be any worry about retribution spite calls if the player is not violating the rules?

For the same reason foot faults don't get called; it's impossible to tell. Hopefully no one would second the retaliation, but you can raise the argument on every single jump putt because even "very legal" ones are what, 1/4 of a second between release and the foot coming up?

Especially in MA2/3, I could totally see someone getting upset for being called when they think it was legal, even if it wasn't, and retaliating by calling foot faults every time the person who called it on them jump putts.
 
How would that work? The whole card stands behind every player before they throw? Gonna make for some really long rounds!:p

.

Players have the rules. The rule found in this link - https://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/80102 - says that players are expected to make calls.

https://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/812 says that you must watch other players shots.

the competition manual even goes into failure to call rules as player misconduct.

Bottom line, the rules are there - and your expected to follow them. The penalty for failure to do so is pretty clear.
 
How many illegal jump putts have you called over the years? How many have you seen in real time that you have thought might be illegal but have been unable to definitively say?

When a rule is for all intents and purposes unenforceable in practice the problem is indeed about the rule.

I understand the point of this. I've called illegal jump putts, but they were blatantly obvious (kicking mini is the most common version). I've even seen someone throw while in the air - like it was intentional.

Media coverage has extremely heightened our knowledge and sensitivity towards these things - that is both a good and a bad thing.

Until there is an actual study done about how many jump putts are actually illegal, I don't see any issue with the current rule. But saying that, jump putting was absolutely a consequence of the follow through rule outside the circle.

Call me a fan of pushing the circle back to 100 feet and then this discussion is a complete moot point.
 
i'm starting to think you anti-jump-putt guys are discriminating against the more 'athletic' players. we need an amendment to prevent discrimination on the basis of 'athleticism'...

wait a second...that's what the whole tournament's about in the first place...scratch that amendment...lol
 
Players have the rules. The rule found in this link - https://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/80102 - says that players are expected to make calls.

https://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/812 says that you must watch other players shots.

the competition manual even goes into failure to call rules as player misconduct.

Bottom line, the rules are there - and your expected to follow them. The penalty for failure to do so is pretty clear.

That's all fine and dandy, but few if any follow them and they're not enforced. Until there are some consequences, these rules are moot. But this all just beating a dead horse and I too would like to see a larger putting circle along with making step and jump putting illegal.
 
Call me a fan of pushing the circle back to 100 feet and then this discussion is a complete moot point.

Make it 200 and then we can go back to having par be shots to the circle plus 2 as well. The DGPT guys are going to waste a lot more paint though...
 
Call me a fan of pushing the circle back to 100 feet and then this discussion is a complete moot point.

Great, I can't wait for the 100 foot walk off to determine if someone is inside or outside the circle.

10 meters = 10.93 yards. It pretty easy for me to gauge the distance for a first down. I can't say that about 33.33 yards. And a 100 foot circle really doesn't work on most disc golf greens.
 
Make it 200 and then we can go back to having par be shots to the circle plus 2 as well.

True, except par never was that.

The DGPT guys are going to waste a lot more paint though...

I'm thinking of all the overlapping circles at some events. It would look like a giant line drawing of a bubble bath.

What if we make it easier by applying the "putting" rule everywhere but the tee?
 

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