Foot Faults at World by Stokely

[martiantakeover]

 

[lyleoross]

I think we are getting off the original point a little but this is good to have the discussion. I was there at the worlds and have always been a big climo fan. I also remember Scott back in the 90's. Scott always challenged ken but couldn't really get over that hump in a worlds (neither could anyone else at the time). The reality is that they play against each other. In fact in golf you play against ever other player in your division. Now think about this for a minute. Forget about whether he foot faulted or not for a second and think of who is making the calls. Isn't that the real issue? Regardless of what you change the rule to if the competitor is allowed to make the determination, where is the integrity in that? How about the opposing baseball team being allowed to call balls and strikes? Or the defensive line allowed to call holding. Disc golf used to be smaller. There was one tournament director and maybe 70 players. There was a need for players to govern themselves. Since then the sport has grown and the money is bigger. There are hundreds of spectators and every one of them has a smart phone with HD camera. The point is this this the world championships. And the competition is making the calls.
Ask yourself a question.... In the games present form tell me if this is possible. ... If 2 players on any give card do not like a particular player on the same card and want that player to lose a few strokes. Would it be possible to call the foot faults that are "close"? Just answer if it is possible.
I hear folks saying that Scott shouldn't have made it close. But that is his right to use that space. I understand that IN ITS CURRENT FORM that he takes the chance of being called. (Like a pitcher painting the corners he may get the strike or it may be a ball) the difference is there is a neutral party behind the plate calling them. No one can say for sure that he did not foot fault. No one had a tape measure. No one can say for sure. But it is left up to your competitors?! Gimme a break. I've played disc golf since 81. The game evolves and so does should the rules.

Man are you old :thmbup:

As much as disc golf has grown, there still aren't enough bodies to watch every card. Clearly, it's the ball golf model, where we are all gentle persons, of good moral fiber, and rich enough that we don't have to take advantage of each other, just the caddies.

The only way you can address such issues, as you allude to, is a change in the rules. If it is a player called rule, with a huge chunk of subjectivity, you have a problem. The real question is how big is the problem? No one asks, does this really matter? Yep, Scott isn't stoked, sorry, had to, and frankly, KC is looking a little nasty, maybe true, maybe not, but what is the real impact on the sport, Worlds, and who won? If we feel the rule is being violated to the tune of differences in finishing, in major tournaments, then the PDGA should act.

All of the discussion here is nice, but it misses a bigger issue. The impact of the issue on perception of the game. These kinds of issues make us look bad to sponsors, the viewing public etc. Small, yes, but still an important issue.

 

[lyleoross]

Everyone is playing with the same set of rules. How is it not fair, or on unequal footing?

Because the rules aren't being called equitably. In stand and deliver, you take firm stance, the room for fudging around the edge decreases, so more people are in compliance and playing from the same place.

Your assertion that everyone is playing by the same written rules is correct. But not everyone is playing by the same unwritten rules. That is where the problem lies. For example, if 80% of players ignore the foot fault in open field run ups, then there is a problem. Its fine to say, well your loss, but if you're on card two, and a player is making that call, and no one on card one is making the call, you are at a significant disadvantage, no matter how you play.

 

[Emoney]

People are looking at this the wrong way. Stand and deliver should be considered the proper technique when playing behind your lie. The run up is considered the RISK. So by running up to your lie you are taking the risk of missing it and getting stroked. Scott should have went to stand still when he realized he was being worked. The foot fault on runups is rarely called and happens a ton. If you can not properly execute the runup, then stand and deliver if it becomes and issue in your group.

 

[Rockwell]

Taking away run-ups for non-tee shots is a terrible idea.

Run-ups are an athletic movement that require skill, reduce body wear and tear, and allow for a greater range of shots to be made.

They are also an important component on many of our sports best multi-shot holes. (or if you hit the first available tree)

Side note: IF stand and deliver were the rule, you would then have the new problem of watching to see if a players toes came off of the ground in tall grass and thick rough before they threw.

 

[ToddL]

People are looking at this the wrong way. Stand and deliver should be considered the proper technique when playing behind your lie. The run up is considered the RISK. So by running up to your lie you are taking the risk of missing it and getting stroked. Scott should have went to stand still when he realized he was being worked. The foot fault on runups is rarely called and happens a ton. If you can not properly execute the runup, then stand and deliver if it becomes and issue in your group.

Agreed.
There were some arguments on this thread (or one of the others) about extending the lie to 20" or 2 feet because sometimes your disc's position makes it dangerous to plant on the line after your runup. Well, too bad. If your lie is on uneven terrain or loose rocks or on the edge of an erosion gulley, maybe you should stand still when you throw and sacrifice some distance in order to guarantee that you've taken a legal (and safe) stance. If you choose to do a runup in an area with uneven footing and you miss your mark, that's the risk you chose to take.

 

[Kodachrome]

The Lie:.

Fixed.

 

[Nuke]

A- they were all faults. B- people talking about baseball calls etc is off-base, it's better to look at ball golf. You call yourself for the most part in ball golf. Now ask if Scott would have called himself, correctly, for any of those faults. Or would any of you call yourself for faults that didn't benefit you? C- the only real hot take to have from the videos, in my opinion, is Ken being rude about the whole thing. And Scott, quite correctly, continually trying to calm the situation by handling himself correctly and reminding Ken that nobody was arguing with him.

 

[Kodachrome]

A- they were all faults. B- people talking about baseball calls etc is off-base, it's better to look at ball golf. You call yourself for the most part in ball golf. Now ask if Scott would have called himself, correctly, for any of those faults. Or would any of you call yourself for faults that didn't benefit you? C- the only real hot take to have from the videos, in my opinion, is Ken being rude about the whole thing. And Scott, quite correctly, continually trying to calm the situation by handling himself correctly and reminding Ken that nobody was arguing with him.

Are there any rules about centimeters in ball golf that require you to measure with your naked eye?

 

[The Hammer]

Because the rules aren't being called equitably. In stand and deliver, you take firm stance, the room for fudging around the edge decreases, so more people are in compliance and playing from the same place.

Your assertion that everyone is playing by the same written rules is correct. But not everyone is playing by the same unwritten rules. That is where the problem lies. For example, if 80% of players ignore the foot fault in open field run ups, then there is a problem. Its fine to say, well your loss, but if you're on card two, and a player is making that call, and no one on card one is making the call, you are at a significant disadvantage, no matter how you play.

That is a pretty good response.

 

[bballr4567]

People are looking at this the wrong way. Stand and deliver should be considered the proper technique when playing behind your lie. The run up is considered the RISK. So by running up to your lie you are taking the risk of missing it and getting stroked. Scott should have went to stand still when he realized he was being worked. The foot fault on runups is rarely called and happens a ton. If you can not properly execute the runup, then stand and deliver if it becomes and issue in your group.

What I've been saying!!!! The thrower takes the risk in a run up!

 

[solidhummer]

Man are you old :thmbup:

As much as disc golf has grown, there still aren't enough bodies to watch every card. Clearly, it's the ball golf model, where we are all gentle persons, of good moral fiber, and rich enough that we don't have to take advantage of each other, just the caddies.

The only way you can address such issues, as you allude to, is a change in the rules. If it is a player called rule, with a huge chunk of subjectivity, you have a problem. The real question is how big is the problem? No one asks, does this really matter? Yep, Scott isn't stoked, sorry, had to, and frankly, KC is looking a little nasty, maybe true, maybe not, but what is the real impact on the sport, Worlds, and who won? If we feel the rule is being violated to the tune of differences in finishing, in major tournaments, then the PDGA should act.

All of the discussion here is nice, but it misses a bigger issue. The impact of the issue on perception of the game. These kinds of issues make us look bad to sponsors, the viewing public etc. Small, yes, but still an important issue.

Soooooo I think we are argreeing... But I would say that assuming that everyone has good moral fiber is not a way to govern the game and is also a little naive. People make references to ball golf but players do not always call there own penalties. I remember Dustin Johnson grounded his club in a bunker IN A MAJOR. he didn't call it. In fact a Marshall (after the round was over) penalized him. ... Michelle wie (spelling) was dq'd after the round again after taking an incorrect lie.

A change in the rules IS needed. But not whether to run up or not, but just who calls it. You are right that even with the growth of the sport there are not enough eyes for every card...... But there are for every 1st and 2nd card in NT's and majors. We already have rules in the rule book specific to A tiers and majors so let's not say we can't do this.

I believe in the integrity of the game. And I believe rules should be followed. I also believe that the rules should reflect integrity. Having my competition call my fouls (or perceived fouls) just does not make sense to me. I think we have our head in the sand if we believe players won't do every little thing they can to gain an advantage.

Btw. Don't know what you consider old but I am 38 years old. Starting playing when I was 5.

 

[solidhummer]

By the way to your point does this really matter?? Check how much negativeity about this topic, ken, Scott, Patrick, Brian, has surfaced on this forum, reddit, Facebook, etc....

What do you think... Does it really matter?

 

[JC17393]

Soooooo I think we are argreeing... But I would say that assuming that everyone has good moral fiber is not a way to govern the game and is also a little naive. People make references to ball golf but players do not always call there own penalties. I remember Dustin Johnson grounded his club in a bunker IN A MAJOR. he didn't call it. In fact a Marshall (after the round was over) penalized him. ... Michelle wie (spelling) was dq'd after the round again after taking an incorrect lie.

Johnson didn't call the penalty because he was unaware that he was in a bunker due to the quirks of the course. Still his oversight but hardly him knowing he was in the wrong and trying to get away with something.

If I'm recalling the Wie incident, that again was an instance where she believed at the time she was playing by the rules in taking a drop, but turned out to be incorrect. So again, not a case where she knowingly broke the rules and tried to get away with it. And she accepted the DQ (and the loss of her first paycheck as a pro) without protest or complaint.

When we're talking about moral fiber and integrity, that doesn't preclude players from honestly being unaware of a violation when it occurs. It means that when the player is aware of committing a violation, they make the call. I'd extend that to graciously accepting a call when it is made on them as well. Once DJ was made aware of the violation, he didn't protest or throw a fit or take to social media with video "evidence" or rants about how someone was out to get him or what-not. He recognized he made an error and accepted it.

Sadly in our game, the culture is to not call anything (either on ourselves or on others) and the result is endless suspicion when a call actually gets made. The culture creates the notion in players minds that they never do anything wrong or commit violations, even when they clearly do. It's basically the polar opposite of the culture in ball golf of complying with the rules whenever possible.

 

[hook_nuts]

Johnson didn't call the penalty because he was unaware that he was in a bunker due to the quirks of the course. Still his oversight but hardly him knowing he was in the wrong and trying to get away with something.

If I'm recalling the Wie incident, that again was an instance where she believed at the time she was playing by the rules in taking a drop, but turned out to be incorrect. So again, not a case where she knowingly broke the rules and tried to get away with it. And she accepted the DQ (and the loss of her first paycheck as a pro) without protest or complaint.

When we're talking about moral fiber and integrity, that doesn't preclude players from honestly being unaware of a violation when it occurs. It means that when the player is aware of committing a violation, they make the call. I'd extend that to graciously accepting a call when it is made on them as well. Once DJ was made aware of the violation, he didn't protest or throw a fit or take to social media with video "evidence" or rants about how someone was out to get him or what-not. He recognized he made an error and accepted it.

Sadly in our game, the culture is to not call anything (either on ourselves or on others) and the result is endless suspicion when a call actually gets made. The culture creates the notion in players minds that they never do anything wrong or commit violations, even when they clearly do. It's basically the polar opposite of the culture in ball golf of complying with the rules whenever possible.

I've never foot faulted. Coordination is a cool thing.

 

[solidhummer]

That's exactly what I am saying. I'm not suggesting that they purposely broke the rules. But some purposely do it and some accidentally do it. Either way you would agree that the correct call should be made right? My point is sometimes it is unintentional...... But sometimes it IS intentional. Or maybe our goals sways our thinking to one side sometimes. You would agree with that right? It may be or not be unintentional but our vision may be skewed. I mean camon we are human right?

How many people believe Tom Brady knowingly knew what he was doing with deflate gate? Now how many of those are patriot fans? Sometimes our objectives skew our thinking.

Someone who has a stake in the game should not be making the calls. Period

 

[solidhummer]

When I listen to both videos Scott accepts all three calls. I don't understand people saying he didn't. In fact ken kept talking about it and Scott looked at him and said "ken, drop it I'm not arguing.".... Maybe more people had a problem with what Scott did afterwards on Facebook..... All I can say is don't be a Facebook friend of his and let him look like the idiot. He didn't do it in the round and that's all that matters. Let's not get into what players do off the field. DJ was suspended twice from golf and apparently slept with another players wife. Look it up. At the end of the day I don't care what is on Facebook or who does who's wife. What I do care about is the integrity on the course.

 

[Dan Ensor]

Yeah, but we don't change the size of the field from high school to pro ball do we?
Basketball has changed to favor hugely tall guys over the years, but we didn't raise the hoop.
Guys are faster, throw farther in football, but the field is still 100yrds long.
I can go play ball golf a courses a few miles from my house and do okay on holes that are just as the pros will play them in majors.
But, in disc golf the big tourneys manipulate typical course design to have some insanely long holes that only benefit one type of player and are not typically seen on 95% of the courses out there.

And, you don't see ball golfers using a driver from the fairway 2-3 times on par 5s cause they are given the extra benefit of a tee on the first shot. A driver club is meant to crush a cleanly elevated ball. After that, you've got to move to fairway woods or irons to get it off the grass cleanly... and this results in less power for most.
The run up is exactly the same thing as using a wooden tee to improve your hit, imo.

A more controlled, finesse game is way more interesting than open field bombing, imo.
And it keeps the playing field much more even.

In HS, I never played on a field with a fence further than 350'. The pin positions you play on aren't the same as Tour positions. How often do you hit a putt that stops inches from the hole, then rolls into a lake? 3-point line in basketball moves. Courts seem to grow in size from MS to HS to college to pro (maybe just money issues).

I've used a driver from the fairway. It takes a good lie. I also know a lot of people that use tees when using an iron off the tee box. Just like, in DG, it takes a good lie for me to use a full run-up. The fairways often don't give me that good lie, and I have to adjust my run-up.

I see finesse golf being played a lot on the NT. Open fields and run-ups aren't related.
Finesse is equally even to power. They're both skill sets. Paul McBeth has both, so he's the best.

A- they were all faults. B- people talking about baseball calls etc is off-base, it's better to look at ball golf. You call yourself for the most part in ball golf. Now ask if Scott would have called himself, correctly, for any of those faults. Or would any of you call yourself for faults that didn't benefit you? C- the only real hot take to have from the videos, in my opinion, is Ken being rude about the whole thing. And Scott, quite correctly, continually trying to calm the situation by handling himself correctly and reminding Ken that nobody was arguing with him.

You can't call foot faults on yourself.


There was a ball golfer that DQed himself on a call that no one could make but him. What he did could be construed as a whiff, but also could be considered a non-stroke. The difference? Whether he "intended" to hit the ball.

 

[gcr_russell]

Not my image but I had made one myself to get perspective too. Close to a foot fault and arguable, but not the 2-2.5' that's claimed. Maybe age protected divisions need vision check-ups before making calls. I don't necessarily believe there was anything malicious, just that the people involved were incorrect.

 

[DirtyMeathook]

^ is there a way to enlarge the pic so the text is legible?