Foot Faults at World by Stokely

[hook_nuts]

Once again that is a CULTURE problem and not a rules problem.

People hate playing with Feldberg because he calls any violation he sees. Yet, he is just playing by the rules.

Why is the culture of disc golf to be so lax on the rules to where someone finally gets called and it suddenly is a rules issue?

Its not a rules issue.

It's both a culture problem and a rules problem. The limited resources create both. Rules should be followed, but having each card call the rules is obviously flawed. My judgement call is likely different than other's judgement call. Anyone who plays a tournament becomes a referee. Even with officials, judgements would vary, so it can't ever be perfect. We just have to do our best, which is where the culture problem can be seen.

 

[BionicRib]

Who determines whether there is "no advantage either way" with any given lie? How close is close enough to a tree to make it fall under the rule "as is"?

How is that a simpler, easier thing to do than the current rule? I mean, how much simpler and straight-forward can you get than this is the foot-sized spot your foot has to be on when you throw a shot in the fairway no matter where in the fairway you are and no matter what obstacles you have to navigate?

I agree that wouldn't make it simpler, but perhaps make it where if you are at least 2 meters away from an obstacle in any direction behind the lie you have more freedom with your plant foot on a run up. How much freedom? Not sure what would be fair. Maybe make it like a long jumper who has to hit a board from a 100ft run up (or something along those lines.

Again I'm not completely sold on this idea, but some sort of change should at least be considered.

 

[bballr4567]

It's both a culture problem and a rules problem. The limited resources create both. Rules should be followed, but having each card call the rules is obviously flawed. My judgement call is likely different than other's judgement call. Anyone who plays a tournament becomes a referee. Even with officials, judgements would vary, so it can't ever be perfect. We just have to do our best, which is where the culture problem can be seen.

No, the rules shouldn't be followed but MUST be followed. The must is what a lot of players have trouble with.

 

[BionicRib]

On a side note

One could argue that the 30cm rule provides an advantage to those with smaller feet. The bigger your foot the harder (or less room for error) it is to hit the mark. Anybody out there with size 14s know what I'm getting at?

For example... A guy with large feet plants/releases and as his plant foot turns he bumps his mini just after release with his toe. IMO it would (without video evidence being legal) be tough to call a foot fault. Benefit of doubt goes to the player. Right?
But how many times would people call him on a foot fault anyways?

Sure you could say the guy with big feet should plant farther behind his mini, but if you where size 14s and you only have 30cms to work with...well...do the math

 

[krupicka]

I would think the opposite is true. Those with a larger foot print would have an easier time hitting the LOP.

 

[The Hammer]

On a side note

One could argue that the 30cm rule provides an advantage to those with smaller feet. The bigger your foot the harder (or less room for error) it is to hit the mark. Anybody out there with size 14s know what I'm getting at?

For example... A guy with large feet plants/releases and as his plant foot turns he bumps his mini just after release with his toe. IMO it would (without video evidence being legal) be tough to call a foot fault. Benefit of doubt goes to the player. Right?
But how many times would people call him on a foot fault anyways?

Sure you could say the guy with big feet should plant farther behind his mini, but if you where size 14s and you only have 30cms to work with...well...do the math

I have 13's and have zero problems with foot faults. Maybe it's because I have an intentionally slow approach with my "run-up".

 

[BionicRib]

I would think the opposite is true. Those with a larger foot print would have an easier time hitting the LOP.

I should clarify....longer feet...not larger or wider necessarily

 

[BionicRib]

I have 13's and have zero problems with foot faults. Maybe it's because I have an intentionally slow approach with my "run-up".

Not saying you do....just saying you have grounds for a discrimination argument. I've never been called on a foot fault, but I wouldn't bet my life that I've never foot faulted and it went unnoticed

 

[Flip Hyzerman]

Seemed like the situation actually worked as it should have; the 2nd 'foot fault' is debatable with the video evidence provided - the first seems legit to just about everybody. I'm kind of surprised Ken didn't just call it and be done, but clearly the two have or have had tension in the past. I suspect Brian Graham has an issue with dude's dress/hair and general casual demeanor, but to Scott's credit he didn't blow up or try to argue it out - despite the baiting.

 

[Horsman]

On a side note

One could argue that the 30cm rule provides an advantage to those with smaller feet. The bigger your foot the harder (or less room for error) it is to hit the mark. Anybody out there with size 14s know what I'm getting at?

For example... A guy with large feet plants/releases and as his plant foot turns he bumps his mini just after release with his toe. IMO it would (without video evidence being legal) be tough to call a foot fault. Benefit of doubt goes to the player. Right?
But how many times would people call him on a foot fault anyways?

Sure you could say the guy with big feet should plant farther behind his mini, but if you where size 14s and you only have 30cms to work with...well...do the math

Never thought of this. My foot is well over 30cm and when I throw from a standstill I sometimes rotate on my heel. SO it is very possible that every time I throw like that it is a foot fault because when I release the disc my heel is the only thing on the ground and more than 30cm away.

 

[BionicRib]

Never thought of this. My foot is well over 30cm and when I throw from a standstill I sometimes rotate on my heel. SO it is very possible that every time I throw like that it is a foot fault because when I release the disc my heel is the only thing on the ground and more than 30cm away.

You are probably fine because your toe isn't off the ground till the disc is gone. If it was you wouldn't throw as far as I've seen you throw, but at regular speed if you bumped your mini our disc, it could be interpreted as a violation. It all happens so fast and imo benefit of the doubt goes to the player.

I'll remember to watch super close next time we bump into each other

 

[lyleoross]

Once again that is a CULTURE problem and not a rules problem.

People hate playing with Feldberg because he calls any violation he sees. Yet, he is just playing by the rules.

Why is the culture of disc golf to be so lax on the rules to where someone finally gets called and it suddenly is a rules issue?

Its not a rules issue.

In a perfect world, where everyone acts the same, you're correct. We don't live in that one, we live in one where the players call the fouls, not an official. As long as that is the case, then you need rules that tend to enforce themselves, or make it very obvious when they are disobeyed.

The Culture is set by the PDGA itself. That is, the organization from the top down thinks open field foot faults should be ignored, at least to some extent. That makes the culture institutionalized by the guys enforcing the rules. Therein lies the problem. Until the PDGA thinks the rule needs to be enforced, the players will treat it haphazardly. It matters not which approach gets taken, getting the PDGA to take the rule seriously, or writing the rule in such a way that disobedience is obvious to everyone on the field, a change is necessary.

The notion of having an official on each card is great, but only if that official takes the rule seriously and enforces it equally. If for example, the official thinks a certain level of foot faulting is okay, and Ken and Patrick are under that level, but Scott is over, you have a problem. Given that I've seen both Ken and Patrick foot fault with no call, it raises a clear issue.

 

[lyleoross]

It's both a culture problem and a rules problem. The limited resources create both. Rules should be followed, but having each card call the rules is obviously flawed. My judgement call is likely different than other's judgement call. Anyone who plays a tournament becomes a referee. Even with officials, judgements would vary, so it can't ever be perfect. We just have to do our best, which is where the culture problem can be seen.

Well stated!

 

[lyleoross]

No, the rules shouldn't be followed but MUST be followed. The must is what a lot of players have trouble with.

But this is just a platitude. It's like saying that the speed limit rules must be followed, or that the traveling rule in basketball must be strictly obeyed. Neither happens in the real world.

Rules written such that when they are violated it is clear to all involved are more easily followed. This one is not.

 

[bballr4567]

The notion of having an official on each card is great, but only if that official takes the rule seriously and enforces it equally. If for example, the official thinks a certain level of foot faulting is okay, and Ken and Patrick are under that level, but Scott is over, you have a problem. Given that I've seen both Ken and Patrick foot fault with no call, it raises a clear issue.

Then you have the officials not calling everything equally.


The clear issue is people not calling violations. That is the only issue. If you modify the rules but still have people not calling violations what does that accomplish? Nothing except you just changed the rules.

But this is just a platitude. It's like saying that the speed limit rules must be followed, or that the traveling rule in basketball must be strictly obeyed. Neither happens in the real world.

Rules written such that when they are violated it is clear to all involved are more easily followed. This one is not.

Once again, the issue is players not applying the rules evenly and then getting bent out of shape when they break them al a Scott's facebook rant about breaking the rules.

 

[lyleoross]

I should clarify....longer feet...not larger or wider necessarily

That's it, I'm buying myself some size triple E width shoes tonight!

 

[solidhummer]

You make very good points, and for the most part, we do agree. I assumed you started after high school, it was the 81 that got me, that makes me old enough to be your dad.

When Dave Feldberg is on the the third card, and gains a significant advantage on card one because there is no official on card three, you still have a problem. I don't say this because I think Dave cheats, only because I think he poses a serious challenge to the players on card 2 and card 1. The truth is that if you can get caddies at majors, you can probably cover every card. It's the lesser tournaments where you go lacking. Perhaps that is good enough?

Given there is often enough video to provide evidence on most cards, perhaps video review or video based challenges should be allowed?

Perhaps it is my age, but my faith in integrity is less than yours. I believe that we should be honest, and play by the rules, but as a certified soccer referee, I see far more gamesmanship than an actual desire to follow the rules. Trying to get every advantage - legally - vs cheating is a slim distinction for many/most athletes. One only has to watch television to get this very quickly. My feeling is that the rules should enforce integrity, relying on my fellow human beings integrity seems a bust....

Yes we agree. Even on your last paragraph. The rules should enforce integrity.

That is why I have a problem with my competition deciding whether I fouled or not. Only two of my competitors have to agree that I foot faulted?? Can we not see the flaw in this??

I don't have a problem with a run up. I don't have a problem with the line having no measurable thickness. I don't have a problem with any thing else. And your right about the 3rd or 4th card. I was just making a suggestion. I don't know what the answer is. All I know is the rule can't enforce integrity the way it is written now because people see things differently depending on what there objective is. It is a pie in the sky mentality to think otherwise..

Let me pose it this way. Sometimes it is not because someone is trying to be mean, but that some one is trying to be too nice. I've played rounds with friends before where it was really hard to call a penalty because they were my friend. I called him on it but let's sat that I didn't. The rules are NOT enforcing integrity. Sarah lost the open division by what.... 1 or 2 strokes? We all know she got into a car accident that caused her to miss 2 holes. (Par plus 4) do you know how badly I bet there were people out there that wanted to hand her the win?

 

[coupe]

That is why I have a problem with my competition deciding whether I fouled or not. Only two of my competitors have to agree that I foot faulted?? Can we not see the flaw in this??

Two of three on a four person card is 66.667%. That's not simply a majority; that's an overwhelming consensus. Given the demonstrable extreme reluctance of disc golfers to call even the most rules violations, if two competitors on your card call you for a foot fault, maybe … just maybe … you need to set aside your paranoia for a moment and at least consider the possibility that you actually did commit a foot fault.

 

[araytx]

The video posted from behind stokely shows he didn't foot fault. The basket was to the right, he ran at a sideways angle throwing an anhyzer and planted his foot to the left which is the line of play with the basket.

I concure with this. The basket was to his right.

How far was he from the mini is the question, right? He has 11.8 inches opposite the target, which has been stated is way right out of the frame. Anything not on that line constitutes a foot fault and can be called any time. The second angle looks to be much closer to faulting.



I agree, stand and deliver would eliminate much of the rules concern, but would it be as much fun?

I believe that in audio they never had a problem with Stokely being in line. I heard them discussing that he was "way more" than 30cm (11.8 inches) behind the marker.

 

[araytx]

On a side note

One could argue that the 30cm rule provides an advantage to those with smaller feet. The bigger your foot the harder (or less room for error) it is to hit the mark. Anybody out there with size 14s know what I'm getting at?

For example... A guy with large feet plants/releases and as his plant foot turns he bumps his mini just after release with his toe. IMO it would (without video evidence being legal) be tough to call a foot fault. Benefit of doubt goes to the player. Right?
But how many times would people call him on a foot fault anyways?

Sure you could say the guy with big feet should plant farther behind his mini, but if you where size 14s and you only have 30cms to work with...well...do the math

I have 16s, and I definitely get that.

People make the argument that the culture is perpetuated our it self-officiated sport and not finding a way to simplify/enforce. Don't people know that the same thing occurs in tennis at every level except the top pros? They call their own lines, rules, etc. Of course there is inconsistency. Different personalities among players are a factor. There are people in this thread who think virtually never should a foot fault be called. There are others who believe it should only be "when an advantage is gained." And there are those who believe in enforcement to the exact letter of the rule. That is a part of sports, all self-officiated sports. When a sport has professionally trained and appointed officials THEN there is a better chance of consistency, because the same organization is providing the training, standards, and expectations.

All that being said doesn't mean the rule should be thrown out in order to "simplify." And I don't believe the PDGA is to blame. They likely made the same speech at the players meeting that they always do -- that they want the game played by the rules and all violations properly called and complied with.