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Form Check

I'd say Paul's pelvis is going downhill here.
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I never looked very closely before, but man that' s a huge difference in Nate's hip mechanics and posture there. I remember him talking with someone (maybe Earhart) saying he wished he had spent more time working on his backhand...

From the front view it's tricky because if you look at his shirt it looks uphill, but the butt view clearly shows the opposite.
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I was just thinking last night that this "shirt illusion" is really annoying and part of why I got all tangled up. It's because the bottom of the shirt is riding on top of the front leg as they are moving over it even though the pelvis is "downhill". Each one of these guys has a little bit of that illusion viewed from the front:

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There are way more shots of pros viewed from west or south end of the tee than the east of the tee. Been looking for butt views a lot as a result.

Paul's pelvis going "downhill" even when throwing uphill.

Baby Gibson shows it nicely.

The Birdman:
 
One thing I've finally realize, and it's really changed the feel of my throw, is that I think I finally get that in the X-step it seems as through you're trying to drive forward off the right leg a decent bit and push your butt forward. No new videos yet, just a notice. Finally makes sense what SW said years and years ago about "gliding" over that left foot.

Good to see you at Rice Bowl too!
 
It's been a whileeeeee


First thing I noticed
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Overall though this is the first form video I think I've taken since I started that I'm actually hopeful of.
Feel free to tear it down though SW
 
Got a net for the winter and splurged on a Techdisc which will arrive in January so I'm hoping to spend some time in the lab this off season and improve. I was looking at some Thomas Gilbert slow motion, especially this video


And noticed he isn't as weight-forward as the above examples, and our forms actually line up decent for emulation. I still would like to BE more weight-forward leveraged, and it will be a point of work. However the most striking thing, and something everyone else does more than be also is bending my knees more. Also gotta delay my upper body more. Final glaring issue of Gilbert vs Me is just the amount of extra leverage he gets in his power pocket. I GOTTA work on keeping my upper arm up and out.

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Got a TechDisc because I find it interesting, here are my top backhand throws. Interestingly two of the 63 mph throws were basically standstills, meaning my x step is an active detriment to speed and spin rate. Also I tried about 5 different grips throwing these and it had no effect on nose angle, but I cannot figure out how to throw nose down.

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FWIW, this almost always happens to me when I first make form changes to my X-step. Proportions are maybe more meaningful than raw distances: I get something like a 5% distance advantage to X-step over standstills when I lean away. I get something like 20% distance advantage when I get my mass and posture ahead & hershyzering into the plant even when there are other problems to work on.

FWIW 2: I think you are not noticing that Gilbert's leverage and mass are still leading his X-step more than it appears relative to your own move there/his move is more like running athletically sideways allowing his mass to lead a bit for efficiency. That's why his follow through carries his center forward into follow through whereas you end up more trapped in follow through.

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FWIW, this almost always happens to me when I first make form changes to my X-step. Proportions are maybe more meaningful than raw distances: I get something like a 5% distance advantage to X-step over standstills when I lean away. I get something like 20% distance advantage when I get my mass and posture ahead & hershyzering into the plant even when there are other problems to work on.

FWIW 2: I think you are not noticing that Gilbert's leverage and mass are still leading his X-step more than it appears relative to your own move there/his move is more like running athletically sideways allowing his mass to lead a bit for efficiency. That's why his follow through carries his center forward into follow through whereas you end up more trapped in follow through.
I don't disagree with your lean away part, but I think you're picking the wrong frame. Hear me out. I'd say technically Seppo is leaning away here. What I'm really missing in my footwork, and I think if I looked probably almost all ams do incorrectly in their X-step that I haven't seen anyone talk about is the left knee. Look at how I bring my left foot behind, I'm swinging my whole femur, which is turning my hips even further away, and upsetting my balance. You can't get hips forward like that WITHOUT leaning backward. Also then your left leg becomes straight and you have to vault the pole you've made
If you scroll up to the picture of all the pro x-steps, they have the left femur still outside of their right, and get movement of their left foot almost solely from the knee bend. Keeps the hips from turning too far back and keeps you moving sideways rather than backwards.
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Could be and also not entirely disagreeing there, though let me try to reframe what I was trying to point out and is different in Seppos move vs. you because it's more clear:

Seppos overall posture is moving more "downhill" than yours there. His move in transition is functioning and posturally more like seabas' Hershyzer drill, where the lower body and spine are initially coiled back into the rear side in the X-step as that step inherits his weight, then are allowed to swing forward under his head a bit (landing in "braced tilt"). Notice how posturally Seppo is leading more with his mass in transition whereas yours is trapped farther behind your X. Your overall balance and posture slows you down. So you could try to isolate the femur and see if that works. Though Gilbert's move also works off the rear leg because he doesn't violate letting the mass lead and balances closer to as described above. IMHO I think you might be able to pull off Gilbert's move if you want to (also reminds me of Ricky) based on your body type, but something in your posture is blocking you from accessing what they both have in common in transition. I think we agree that you should focus around there.

One way to fix it is to see if you can adjust leverage in the rear leg in balance. Another is to adjust the posture to be more aggressive overall and leaning into it more from the outset. I think we see both types of transition moves in advanced form, so trying both and seeing what works better might be on the docket.

Hopefully that was a fair and balanced response, I can point to more on figures if we're talking past each other for some reason.
 
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Could be and also not entirely disagreeing there, though let me try to reframe what I was trying to point out and is different in Seppos move vs. you because it's more clear:

Seppos overall posture is moving more "downhill" than yours there. His move in transition is functioning and posturally more like seabas' Hershyzer drill, where the lower body and spine are initially coiled back into the rear side in the X-step as that step inherits his weight, then are allowed to swing forward under his head a bit (landing in "braced tilt"). Notice how posturally Seppo is leading more with his mass in transition whereas yours is trapped farther behind your X. Your overall balance and posture slows you down. So you could try to isolate the femur and see if that works. Though Gilbert's move also works off the rear leg because he doesn't violate letting the mass lead and balances closer to as described above. IMHO I think you might be able to pull off Gilbert's move if you want to (also reminds me of Ricky) based on your body type, but something in your posture is blocking you from accessing what they both have in common in transition. I think we agree that you should focus around there.

One way to fix it is to see if you can adjust leverage in the rear leg in balance. Another is to adjust the posture to be more aggressive overall and leaning into it more from the outset. I think we see both types of transition moves in advanced form, so trying both and seeing what works better might be on the docket.

Hopefully that was a fair and balanced response, I can point to more on figures if we're talking past each other for some reason.
Yeah I don't disagree with anything you said, I just think it all comes back to that leg move at least for me.
Here is what I kind of mean, if you have a straight back leg, you have to "pole vault" over it, so you're going to be arresting momentum and will always be behind it. If you collapse that leg you're free to glide sideways over it. I feel crazy never noticing it before and now I see it everywhere.

I like Gilberts, but I can't quite figure out how he gets it to work, and with the Seppo crow hop I've been able to "feel" the drive off that left foot once the weight gets past it so I'm trying to full commit.
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Yeah I don't disagree with anything you said, I just think it all comes back to that leg move at least for me.
Here is what I kind of mean, if you have a straight back leg, you have to "pole vault" over it, so you're going to be arresting momentum and will always be behind it. If you collapse that leg you're free to glide sideways over it. I feel crazy never noticing it before and now I see it everywhere.

I like Gilberts, but I can't quite figure out how he gets it to work, and with the Seppo crow hop I've been able to "feel" the drive off that left foot once the weight gets past it so I'm trying to full commit.
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Show me how you think their spine and pelvis are aligned in your sketch. I have a guess why we're talking past each other a bit.

Edit: and then I have a drill suggestion(s) once we're on the same page.
 
Show me how you think their spine and pelvis are aligned in your sketch. I have a guess why we're talking past each other a bit.

Edit: and then I have a drill suggestion(s) once we're on the same page.
It's kind of isolated in that diagram to just legs, a very math major way to do it I guess, assume a sphere with no atmosphere.

I think from my slow motion it's more clear that swinging your femur behind you has a negative impact on your hip position and posture, it's going to pull your hips more rear facing, and keep you from moving downhill. I can't get my mass ahead because my left leg is pulling me back and upward. I just did some walk throughs in my living room with a mega bend left legs and it feels completely different.
 
It's kind of isolated in that diagram to just legs, a very math major way to do it I guess, assume a sphere with no atmosphere.

I think from my slow motion it's more clear that swinging your femur behind you has a negative impact on your hip position and posture, it's going to pull your hips more rear facing, and keep you from moving downhill. I can't get my mass ahead because my left leg is pulling me back and upward. I just did some walk throughs in my living room with a mega bend left legs and it feels completely different.
I've worked with mathematicians and physicists in my "day job" and enjoy our conversations!

Keep in mind that a problem with making your cow too spherical is when you are interested in questions where the biology mediates the outputs and the approximation is too coarse. I think one thing I've picked up here at DGCR is:
1. You can definitely overcomplicate this to your peril, but knowledge used well can help and
2. the closer you can make your move to something like walking, running, dancing, baseball (whatever) that recruits the right stuff, the better.

So maybe let's pick it up with walking and decide how spherical to make your cow or not:

Focus on walking forward - you should notice that your spine and hips are doing something similar to the golfer at the end of this video, just in a smaller "figure 8". You probably have done that without thinking since childhood. Look for (1) the way the pelvis tips back and forth under the spine, (2) how the spine is actually also curving/bending (side bend) in each direction a bit, and (3) how the whole posture "sways" back and forth a bit with the bottom of spine and pelvis swinging under the head slightly and not unlike a pendulum.


See how the spine "sways" a bit under the head and has some curvature and a little bend in the lumbar region? How the pelvis etc track with it? That's basically want I'm trying to get you to focus on. Again, focus on what's natural in walking first. You might also benefit from messing aroudn with some of the waltz moves in the video here.* The Power of Posture

This is something that Seppo & Gilbert have in common, but most people have immense trouble doing naturally moving sideways while accelerating. Sidewinder likes to solve it with Hershyzer because it "presets" that aggressive posture and then forces you to get comfortable accelerating out of it leveraged off the rear leg. IMHO learning to do that smoothly from the X-step requires a lot of trial and error and work.

If you see and feel it walking and think you get what's in common with the golf vid, you also know what's different between walking and the backhand and what this guy is doing. He is isolating and stiffening his spine and pelvis so they don't move naturally while his legs do:


This is the difference between how I see "stick figures" in form and fundamental postures compared to your diagram- understanding the legs without understanding the pelvis and spine would give us a weird theory about human motion. You'd maybe learn how to do a sick robot dance, but probably limit your backhand :) I would suggest to include the pelvis and shoulders in my mental "wireframe" analysis of pro and our own movement. YMMV.

*Natural motion cue: I've been through the ringer here. I always sucked at running sideways. But I became a decent waltzer, so those cues make sense to me and my body. IMHO figuring out if it's a walk, run, gallop, dance, whatever in transition is important. Baseball people like to 'crow hop', sprinters like to sprint, etc. So maybe use whatever overall best "template" your body has and nudge around in there.
 
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Oh I forgot: depending on how you take that/decide to do the walking experiment/report findings, I might zoom you in on a couple drill suggestions if you're interested. Probably good to hear about your walking first.
 
Yeah I think it needs some tinkering, but also I have never been athletic nor coordinated. I played soccer and basketball for YEARS and was complete garbage until I was 19 when my brain finally decided to start being able to control my limbs.
 
Oh - Sidewinder might start you somewhere else but this suddenly stuck out to me immediately when I saw both of your moves.

I think you are in opposite/have uncomfortable side bend before you start your reachback, which is related to why you are a bit tipping more than shifting in the X-step. I think it's also why you're having trouble finding the best move through the hips b/c the move is out of sequence. I used to have exactly this problem. You might have a bit of spine extension in there too, but let me focus on the side bend.

Somewhere around here, Gilber (corrected for his lean for simplicity) and Seppo both have a relatively neutral side bend and relatively neutral spine (not really extended or flexed). Yours is already showing a very significant side bend that we'd expect to be part of the backswing far too early in transition. I don't mind your Seppo-like disc hold right now otherwise, but you are going to need to attack the side bend in the correct sequence or I think you'll just be fighting it.
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Instead, you want to have your whole posture more comfortable neutral in the core at this point like the other guys. As you X-step and begin the reachback, the reachback should be pulling you into that sidebend as you shift forward like Seabas load the bow or door frame drill.

Then, as you land in the plant, the body should transition back through neutral to side bend on the other side as you commit through the release point and go into follow through. Here it is in context of overall posture:
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I'm learning that you don't need a massive side bend either way for it to work, but it needs to be there in the correct sequence. Door frame drill was easily the most important drill for me in working on this. I am going back to taking posture cues from waltz otherwise just because they make more intuitive sense to my body, but notice that's just a fancy and more exaggerated way to do the same thing as McBeth and Gilbert show above. Those two have less pronounced side bend, but if you learn to watch for it in live motion you'll start to see it everywhere.

This one was also incredibly helpful for me. Let your arms/club/whatever "tow" you back into the reachback. You can either do it with a pump or do it with door frame drill, sequence and posture idea is basically the same.
 

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