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"HOLY HELL" course in Daytona
- Thread starter tomjulio
- Start date
thenamesben
Birdie Member
I hate to say it, but I've played a few courses like that. He hit it right on the head when he was talking about the lack of standards for course design. The PDGA needs to get their asses in gear, we need guidance!
I have also played a course similar to that in Florida...I can't remember the name off the top of my head. Safety in a public park should be the Parks Dept. number one priority.
Kids on the playground don't stay in the playground area, they are constantly running around the area as well.
And what about the holes being so close to the ball diamonds? I would hate to play that course when ball games are going on in the event of a bad drive into the outfield: The umpire, "Time! Hey right fielder! Get that plastic frisbee and toss it back over the fence to that guy with the bag of frisbees!"
Kids on the playground don't stay in the playground area, they are constantly running around the area as well.
And what about the holes being so close to the ball diamonds? I would hate to play that course when ball games are going on in the event of a bad drive into the outfield: The umpire, "Time! Hey right fielder! Get that plastic frisbee and toss it back over the fence to that guy with the bag of frisbees!"
theGryphon
Newbie
If you read the blog entry about the melbourne open I got to see the putts for hole 2 during the playoff. I didn't know the tourney was going on and thought I'd squeeze in some late day holes. I was suprised to say the least as I'm rounding the corner and there is a crowd of people following some players around. I was patient and just sat in my car as they were putting right next to the road, while some old bat honked her horn behind me. They really should have some guys like they do at ball golf tourneys with signs that say quiet or something. Well I decided not to play that day because the park was just way too crowded and I wanted some piece and quiet. But I did pick up some sweet new discs from a vendor there. We don't have any real vendors here in brevard so it's nice to pick something up and hold it before ya buy it. Thanks to the vedor for being cool and waiting on me...I know you were packing up and heading home.
Omega SuperSloth
Banned
thats not that bad just dont play on the weekends or after 3:00 i been to florida in the summer there aint going to be nobody outside when its hot.
The thing is, that the PDGA has no governmental authority over telling local parks departments that they can't design and install a course, or a basket manufacturer that they can't sell baskets to such people. We also have to remember that the PDGA is primarily about promoting disc golf as a competitive sport, and most parks departments are interested in installing disc golf courses as a recreation activity for the masses. The kind of courses that each group would like to build are a bit at odds with each other. Lets face it. For every tournament player, there are at least ten casuals.
I do have to agree though, the course being described doesn't serve either purpose very well. I played a couple of nine holers in Nebraska last summer that were equally stupid.
While the Daytona course does indeed sound like a debacle, I disagree with the blogger's assertion that only expertly-trained course designers should be allowed to put in a course. Here in Oregon, a local guy just built two 4-star courses on his land despite having no experience -- he's not even a disc golfer! It just takes common sense, which clearly wasn't used at Holly Hill.
Let him build it! We don't have to play it.....
but why waste the money? You'd think there would have to be a better way - possibly shorten it to a more manageable 9-hole or something.
It just ain't right!
I think what he was more concerned about is that there's still a huge contingent of people out there who don't know what disc golf is and that a course like the one described is going to leave a sour first impression, especially after some innocent bystander needs extensive dental work after taking a Wraith in the piehole. Stories like such will be on some park director/city council members mind later when someone is trying to propose a more practical course.
After reading the blog post, it looks like no major retailer will sell him the baskets because of the poor/dangerous design. Hopefully he doesn't decide to build his own...
I completely agree, SRM. Jungle Tim and I jsut completed the (hopefully) final layout for a permanent 18 hole course at our park in Monterrey, Mexico, and in Mexico NOBODY knows what DG is (yet). THough neither of us has ever designed a course before, and we arent even PDGA members, with about 5 yrs DG experience between us (4 yrs of it is his), I still am confident we designed a good course.
We've been tweaking and retweaking the design since last october, and nothing is in the ground yet. We've bent over backwards to accomodate the totally locals who share the park, and have no idea what we are doing. You dont need to be a pro or have a 3 digit PDGA number to design a good course. Im sure some people who are both have designed terrible ones, but there's really no excuse for a course this crappy.
I think design by committee is the way to go, since hair-brained designs like this that will ultimately hurt the sport (and pedestrians) are less likely to get off the ground, if several people look over it first, instead of just one guy. Thats how we did it, and it worked out great. I made the designs, Tim tweaked them based on the other club member's suggestions and sent it back to me with comments and questions for further alterations, and back and forth for months.
Anyways, thats dissappointing
We've been tweaking and retweaking the design since last october, and nothing is in the ground yet. We've bent over backwards to accomodate the totally locals who share the park, and have no idea what we are doing. You dont need to be a pro or have a 3 digit PDGA number to design a good course. Im sure some people who are both have designed terrible ones, but there's really no excuse for a course this crappy.
I think design by committee is the way to go, since hair-brained designs like this that will ultimately hurt the sport (and pedestrians) are less likely to get off the ground, if several people look over it first, instead of just one guy. Thats how we did it, and it worked out great. I made the designs, Tim tweaked them based on the other club member's suggestions and sent it back to me with comments and questions for further alterations, and back and forth for months.
Anyways, thats dissappointing
crouchingwombat
Birdie Member
Man, thats a bummer... They should send those "paid" for baskets up to Gainesville. We're making a couple new courses up here and could use the baskets!!!! It's not a one man operation either, everyone that plays disc golf, well maybe not everyone, but lots of great players have helped design a new course on the outskirts of town. .... ummm baskets...
there's a park by me that i think would make for a pretty good DG locale, but for sure i'm going to do as another suggested and gets lots of input before the first shovel gets lifted.
i think i've seen enough good courses/holes to design something respectable, but i'm not going to do like holy hell guy and not even ASK others opinions.
the local club would probably trump me to the manufacturers like others are doing to holy hell guy anyway.
i think i've seen enough good courses/holes to design something respectable, but i'm not going to do like holy hell guy and not even ASK others opinions.
the local club would probably trump me to the manufacturers like others are doing to holy hell guy anyway.
agreed but thats why we have such an active site here, to warn us about courses like these.
There are a lot of problems with disc golf course development and not a lot of answers.
I know a guy with a lot of experience who has designed many good courses who designed a terrible course in a small park with a lot of safety concerns. His response was that the parks department was paying him and wanted a course in that park. So despite being exactly the kind of guy Gregg Hosfeld proposes should be the only people allowed to design courses, he was unwilling to walk away from money on the table and put in a terrible course. I'll withhold the name to protect the guilty.
My major gripe with the disc golf power structure is that they have done a terrible job of promoting the sport to the parks and recreation industry. They promote the sport to players, and leave it up to the players to educate their respective parks departments. As a result, a lot of parks departments don't take the sport seriously at all. To them, it's OK to let Billy Joe Bob design a course, becasue other than what Billy Joe Bob has told them they don't know anything about the sport.
Once you talk about forcing parks to pay for a design, well that will be a deal-breaker for a lot of courses. Players propose courses and a recreational place to play. Disc golf courses could be a consistent revenue source for a very low investment for your parks department. You just have to design the course with the idea of charging admission and having a small shack to sell discs and drinks. The concession alone off a well designed course will pay for the course in short order. A lot of players SAY they would never pay to play, but if they were looking for a disc and knew the park had a nice disc concession, they would go to buy a disc and end up paying to play a round. It could easily become a revenue stream with not a lot of overhead and upkeep. The parks and recreation industry does not see it that way becasue it's not presented to them like this. From their perspective, why would you pay $10,000 for a course design when Billy Joe Bob will do it for free? Either way, they are not going to make a dime off the course. So why spend the money?
Of course, none of this matters to the PDGA, becasue they are trying to make disc golf a "professional" sport. You hear a lot from them about "private" courses, like they threw in the towel trying to work with the parks and recreation industry years ago.
It would be nice to see an organization dedicated to promoting the sport to the parks and recreation industry, but where is the money going to come from for that? All of the money the different companies that profit from disc golf have to spend on promotional types of things are tied up in trying to keep the half-baked "professional" tour events afloat. Instead of trying to actually promote the sport, we spend all our resources trying to come up with a payday for "pro" golfers. At a result, we get "Holy Hell."
I know a guy with a lot of experience who has designed many good courses who designed a terrible course in a small park with a lot of safety concerns. His response was that the parks department was paying him and wanted a course in that park. So despite being exactly the kind of guy Gregg Hosfeld proposes should be the only people allowed to design courses, he was unwilling to walk away from money on the table and put in a terrible course. I'll withhold the name to protect the guilty.
My major gripe with the disc golf power structure is that they have done a terrible job of promoting the sport to the parks and recreation industry. They promote the sport to players, and leave it up to the players to educate their respective parks departments. As a result, a lot of parks departments don't take the sport seriously at all. To them, it's OK to let Billy Joe Bob design a course, becasue other than what Billy Joe Bob has told them they don't know anything about the sport.
Once you talk about forcing parks to pay for a design, well that will be a deal-breaker for a lot of courses. Players propose courses and a recreational place to play. Disc golf courses could be a consistent revenue source for a very low investment for your parks department. You just have to design the course with the idea of charging admission and having a small shack to sell discs and drinks. The concession alone off a well designed course will pay for the course in short order. A lot of players SAY they would never pay to play, but if they were looking for a disc and knew the park had a nice disc concession, they would go to buy a disc and end up paying to play a round. It could easily become a revenue stream with not a lot of overhead and upkeep. The parks and recreation industry does not see it that way becasue it's not presented to them like this. From their perspective, why would you pay $10,000 for a course design when Billy Joe Bob will do it for free? Either way, they are not going to make a dime off the course. So why spend the money?
Of course, none of this matters to the PDGA, becasue they are trying to make disc golf a "professional" sport. You hear a lot from them about "private" courses, like they threw in the towel trying to work with the parks and recreation industry years ago.
It would be nice to see an organization dedicated to promoting the sport to the parks and recreation industry, but where is the money going to come from for that? All of the money the different companies that profit from disc golf have to spend on promotional types of things are tied up in trying to keep the half-baked "professional" tour events afloat. Instead of trying to actually promote the sport, we spend all our resources trying to come up with a payday for "pro" golfers. At a result, we get "Holy Hell."
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