How much water is too much?

[thirtydirtybirds]

Ok, so to make a long story short, I may have an opportunity to facilitate the construction of a course on about 120 acres of private land. This land is mostly flat with a few minor elevation changes, lightly wooded in places, wide open in others. The most interesting thing about this piece of land is that for the past 100 years of so it has been an operational aquatic farm.

There are ponds everywhere! And not normal, round organic shaped ponds either, geometric angular, semi-grid pattern ponds. Some are in use and others are not, leaving lots of really crazy depressions and ridges all over the place.

The draw for me is that it really is a unique landscape. There are possibilities for lots of water carry shots, peninsula greens, greens at a crossroads with water on almost all sides, et cetera.

My question to you, the disc golf playing and course designing public, is how much water is too much? 5 water carry shots? 6, 7, 8?! I kid you not when I say there could be water on all 18 holes if I wanted to do that (which I think would be well excessive). I'm really excited at the prospect of being involved in a truest unique course, a real one of a kind disc experience, and am motivated to make it happen.

So what do you think? For reference, a satellite view of the property can be found here: https://itouchmap.com/?p=Lilypons+water+gardens&t=l&r=b&submit=Map

Bear in mind not all of the property is available for the course, about half of it is still in use as a agricultural facility.

 

[ISUME]

I'm fine with water on every hole if you allow for a safe play away from the water. Having a 400 foot forced carry is not fun, but a hole where you either go for the 400 foot shot or throw to a safe landing area is fine.

 

[sisyphus]

If you're going to have any recreational down to casual players, you need to allow them an option at maybe 200 feet. I throw 280-330 at my best, and wouldn't want to even throw (especially on a windy day) a forced 300 foot water carry. Obviously, shorter tees and drop zones will have to be generously provided to let different ranges enjoy a water dominant course.

...and variety is the key. If more than half the holes have us groaning and despairing, I wouldn't think it's much fun. I go out to play disc golf, not fishing.

 

[tampora]

I look forward to the day where I can go hit the DG links (isles).

 

[bradharris]

It's not just forced water carries you should be concerned about. Any time there's water of any sort in play on a hole, there's that opportunity for lost discs. This forces players, especially less skilled and less confident players, to play a more defensive game, sticking to safe shots to avoid lightening the bag. While this is a good skill to test, it's not nearly as fun for the players, so it should be used in moderation.

From the looks of that property, water in play is inevitable. So I would turn your focus towards finding as many safe and interesting holes as you can, then fill it in from there.

 

[DavidSauls]

It depends a bit on who's going to be playing it, and how often. A high-loss-risk course can be thrilling once or twice a month, but wearisome if played every day.

 

[thirtydirtybirds]

Great feedback so far guys. A few points I should add:

I am not a great golfer. I probably average around 6 over on most courses and on average max out around 325-350 feet. I am looking at this property from my perspective, which I think is pretty average.

Looking at the satellite view it's pretty intimidating, but it's a large property. A lot of the ponds you see are dry, and none of them I'd be able to encorporate are much bigger than 225', unless throwing across the diagonal.

It would be a course with a small fee, so I want it to be interesting, challenging and fun, but not so crazy people wouldn't be willing to throw $5 at it again.

I don't want every hole to have water, and there is plenty of room to have holes that dont incorporate water. I just think it would be boring if every hole was water carry or die.

I'd love to have 2 tees per hole to start, one for us average joes, and another for you more advanced guys.

Other challenges are readily available, blind tee shots from inside a dry pond, trees, wind, elevation, and I plan to use every bit of it to make an interesting course.

I've been given permission to set up temporary courses to test potential hole layouts, so I can get feedback from a range of players before finalizing anything.

Please guys, keep the feedback coming. I've never tackled a project like this before and want to make it a success, and that all starts with getting feedback and opinions from a wide range of players with different play styles and skill levels.

 

[DavidSauls]

Trophy Lakes in Charleston, SC, has lots of water and uses it all sorts of ways. 3 tee off and carry the water holes, 3 drive up to the edge of the water, carry it on the second shot, a couple where you don't carry water, but the basket is very close to it making the approach scary, and the usual play-alongside-the water fairways.

It is well-regarded (and deservedly so).

 

[Reniger]

I would suggest possibly setting it up as two 9-hole courses - one with water on most holes, and one more in the wooded area and fields. This gives players the option to stick to safer areas (and with two tees, they could still get in 18 holes) or play the full course and run the risk. It's since been redesigned, but when I was growing up, there was a course here in town with 4x 9-hole courses, each with a focused design. One was long and open, one took advantage of quite a bit of elevation, one was densely wooded, and one was more wet. Give interesting options for what style you wanted to play. Now it's been redesigned into 2x 18-hole courses, and there's talk of a redesign for next year's Pro World Masters to make it a championship level 18-hole with a beginner friendly 9-hole in the back. Anyway, the option for variety is fairly unique and interesting in my mind. Moreover, with dual teepads per hole, people could take a challenge on the front 9 and play shorter shots around water. Just an idea.

 

[Toro71]

Trophy Lakes in Charleston, SC, has lots of water and uses it all sorts of ways. 3 tee off and carry the water holes, 3 drive up to the edge of the water, carry it on the second shot, a couple where you don't carry water, but the basket is very close to it making the approach scary, and the usual play-alongside-the water fairways.

It is well-regarded (and deservedly so).

This. I like playing there when I'm in that area, even though I've lost discs there, and probably will again.

The other thing is, they did a good job with multiple tees, so no one has to carry 300 ft over water if they don't want to/can't.

Like most things with course design, how you do it is as important as what you do. So this is a good step, IMO:

I've been given permission to set up temporary courses to test potential hole layouts, so I can get feedback from a range of players before finalizing anything.

The opportunity for that much water in play is fairly rare, so you can look at this as an opportunity to make a pretty unusual course.

 

[Mike C]

Depends on the type of water. Is it shallow and clean, serving to only add strokes? Or is it murky, goose **** filled, and so deep that any disc you throw in is never seen again?

The former is fun. The latter isn't.

 

[thirtydirtybirds]

Mostly the latter, I used to work there years ago harvesting water lillies, so I've been in and out of those ponds a hundred times. Most aren't terrible, but there will definitely be lost discs.

 

[joecoin]

Based on the 6 other courses within 20 miles of that location, I'd be tempted to make it as much water based as possible. That would be the thing that sets it apart from the other courses.

But I wouldn't make it too difficult. It really sucks paying to play and losing a disc or two or three.

 

[Mike C]

Mostly the latter, I used to work there years ago harvesting water lillies, so I've been in and out of those ponds a hundred times. Most aren't terrible, but there will definitely be lost discs.

Then I'd definitely work the holes in a way to cater towards beginners. I know a few courses with the murky water that swallows discs as soon as it goes in, and those really suck the fun out for beginners. Part of the draw of DG is the low price to get started, and losing a disc or two in a round really detracts from that. ITs not like ball golf where the balls are easier to replace than a disc you've thrown for years.

 

[thirtydirtybirds]

I definitely agree, I don't want people to lose 5 discs every time they play there, that's no fun. I spoke to the manager and I'm sure he would grab any he or his team would come across while working the ponds (the whole job is wading in and feeling around on the bottom) and do a lost and found.

I just want to make sure it's worth the cost of entry, so we can keep it there. It would be great to have a few tournaments there as well.

Keep that input coming guys!

 

[sisyphus]

With this type of water, in addition to a lost and found, you might want to stock up on mailing envelopes, and advertise that your entry fee includes 'disc insurance': you'll mail back every lost disc you find if folks will leave disc details and mailing info after the round. (Obviously you can't guarantee, but will try). Might even leave a 'go fund me' jar by the lost disc register for people to donate to the cost of this service.

 

[thirtydirtybirds]

That's a damn fine idea^^

 

[sidewinder22]

I get enough complaints about our one true water hole and most people seem to either love it or hate it. There is a layup option that nobody ever takes and probably 2 out of every 3 discs that go in the pond are retrievable.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

As one of the earlier posts mentioned, using water responsibly involves providing landing zones or shorter tees reachable for us noodle arms that may require an additional shot, but doesn't force water carries that can't be made by all.

I'm also an advocate of using it diferently on different holes. Maybe down the left side on one, looming 15 ft behind the pin on another, down the right side of another. Maybe even a short tunnel with it lining both sides as long as the fairway isn't ridiculously tight.

Have a hole that curves around the edge of a pond, so that big arms can carry the direct route, shorter throwers can play around' trying to avoid fading (or turning) in to it.

And whatever you do, use it to enhance beauty, even if only as a backdrop where it doesn't really come into play.

I suggest limiting the # of holes where it's a prominent risk of disc loss to no more than half. Think quality, creativity, and variety, over sheer qty.

 

[MarkDSM]

Mostly flat, few elevation changes, lightly wooded as a base sounds pretty uninspiring to start with. Multiple water carries, likely abnormal amount, do not add for me. Sure, a water carry now and then is fun and scenic, but it's just another OB but with bad recovery options.
So, no I do not like in theory. The water features sound like they would have to be pushed too much for difficulty and interest which may be a counterproductive affect on fun and desire for replay.