How to handle when a TD may have made a math error in payouts

[Norvelljeff]

This guy is mad that people take a 5 dollar t shirt and sell it for 20 bucks after adding artwork to it. Not one single time in all of his ramblings has he said what type of plastic it is or what type of t shirt.

My gosh. Get a grip man.

 

[Horsman]

I just wish he didnt hide behind a screen name

 

[Monocacy]

Before I read this thread I was thinking of becoming rich by running disc golf tournaments and playing as an amateur.

But now my dreams have been crushed.

 

[kyflash]

The specs:

• PDGA B-tier
• $50 entry fee
• 25 players in division
• Player pack: 1 disc (choice between 2 disc models in premium or a different disc in base plastic), 1 t-shirt

First place was $45 voucher I believe, 4th was $35 voucher.

Has it been that long since I last played in a tournament or is only paying 2 places in a division of 25 now the norm?
Last time I played I think my division had around 30 players and last payout was to 13th place.

 

[DavidSauls]

Has it been that long since I last played in a tournament or is only paying 2 places in a division of 25 now the norm?
Last time I played I think my division had around 30 players and last payout was to 13th place.

He didn't say that. He took the top 2 payouts, looked at the payout charts, and calculated what the total payout was from there.

 

[mojorooks]

He didn't say that. He took the top 2 payouts, looked at the payout charts, and calculated what the total payout was from there.

AND he's talking AM so there normally isn't a cash payout. I'm guessing due to the COVID shortages they gave vouchers instead.

 

[BillFleming]

I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if I make points that are already made. Also, I'm not a Tournament Director (TD), nor have I ever been one....but I do know people who are/have been TDs. I have also taken part in both PDGA sanctioned tournaments and unsanctioned tournaments.

There are two types of tournaments. PDGA sanctioned and PDGA unsanctioned.

PDGA Unsanctioned can be run however the Tournament Director chooses. The TD can also determine the payout (however, they should state what the payout will be in the 'about' or registration portion of the tournament page.

PDGA Sanctioned tournaments are 'controlled' by the PDGA. Tournament Directors have to be certified (I believe) and courses have to be approved (including things like island holes and mandos). Along with all of that, the payout is controlled by the PDGA and the payout schedule is available to the Tournament Director; and they have to follow it.

So was the tournament a sanctioned or unsanctioned tournament? If it was unsanctioned, the TD can make whatever payout they want to. If it was sanctioned, the payout has to follow PDGA guidelines (I believe it is 40% of the division has to be paid out for pro divisions). I'm not sure if the payout scale is available for non-Tournament Directors to view/download.

 

[mojorooks]

The OP is asking how to handle a problem. The responses are not suggesting solutions and instead state there is no problem.

Here is a similar scenario.

I recently decided to buy a disc from a local retailer to support a local pro. It was $20. After buying it, I'm not certain what plastic it is. It might be soft X, it might be Pro-d.

->If it does end up being pro-d, how should I contact the local pro to see if he made a error in the final cost of the disc?


I'm guessing most people will not actually answer my question but instead tell me I'm an idiot for even suggesting there is a problem. A) I already purchased the disc B) I already stated my intent to support the local pro

 

[Horsman]

The OP is asking how to handle a problem. The responses are not suggesting solutions and instead state there is no problem.

Here is a similar scenario.

I recently decided to buy a disc from a local retailer to support a local pro. It was $20. After buying it, I'm not certain what plastic it is. It might be soft X, it might be Pro-d.

->If it does end up being pro-d, how should I contact the local pro to see if he made a error in the final cost of the disc?


I'm guessing most people will not actually answer my question but instead tell me I'm an idiot for even suggesting there is a problem. A) I already purchased the disc B) I already stated my intent to support the local pro

Agreed, I dont see what the problem was. You as a customer bought the disc. You decided that the disc you purchased was worth the price you paid. And if your goal was to support a local pro then why are you questioning the price you paid.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if I make points that are already made. Also, I'm not a Tournament Director (TD), nor have I ever been one....but I do know people who are/have been TDs. I have also taken part in both PDGA sanctioned tournaments and unsanctioned tournaments.

There are two types of tournaments. PDGA sanctioned and PDGA unsanctioned.

PDGA Unsanctioned can be run however the Tournament Director chooses. The TD can also determine the payout (however, they should state what the payout will be in the 'about' or registration portion of the tournament page.

PDGA Sanctioned tournaments are 'controlled' by the PDGA. Tournament Directors have to be certified (I believe) and courses have to be approved (including things like island holes and mandos). Along with all of that, the payout is controlled by the PDGA and the payout schedule is available to the Tournament Director; and they have to follow it.

So was the tournament a sanctioned or unsanctioned tournament? If it was unsanctioned, the TD can make whatever payout they want to. If it was sanctioned, the payout has to follow PDGA guidelines (I believe it is 40% of the division has to be paid out for pro divisions). I'm not sure if the payout scale is available for non-Tournament Directors to view/download.

Don't forget the TD or whoever provides the merchandise for the winner's vouchers is also making coin on the Cost vs Retail Value. So in the end, the guy paid $50, there were 25 teams in the division for a total of $1,250. The players pack cost was $14 ($8 + $6) x 25 = $350. Approx cost for the $350 in winner certificate prizes is let's say $200. So we are at $550. Let's say between PDGA & DG Scene is $5 per player = $125. Now up to $675. Water, scorecards, etc let's add another $3pp or $75 total. So we are at $750 in costs, which equals a $500 profit for the various parties (Club, TD, disc vendor.) If there were 5 divisions, this equals $2500 total profit for the event. Unknown if there was a course charge, parking, etc. If sponsor signs were sold the total profit would be elevated above that $2500 mark.

I have never bitched about cost vs. value, but the potential to make some decent cash running events is most definitely available. The question is how much is too much?

 

[Hampstead]

Well, this blew up.

I got clarification -- the course fee for this event was higher than typical due to the venue.

The value of the player pack was $22. Not that anybody's counting, but $22 for a disc and a t-shirt roughly breaks down to the $16 disc MSRP I referred to + $6 t-shirt. Who am I kidding, I'm absolutely counting because of how much I got absolutely blasted by people saying $36 was a reasonable valuation of the player pack I described. It turns out that all of the times I posted in this thread about $16 plastic + a $5 t-shirt, I was totally wrong. I was off by one entire dollar in my estimates.

I can admit when I was wrong, I was off by $1. One dollar.

For everyone saying that $36 is a reasonable valuation for a disc and a t-shirt in a tournament, I will never play one of your tournaments. Not that your feelings will be hurt, you likely don't want me anyway.

So again, for the record, my math and valuation of the actual value of the player pack was accurate to within $1. I don't expect this will change anyone's minds, but I feel bad for the players who are getting ripped off with inflated t-shirt values in your tournaments. Apparently I have it pretty good.

You come across as an entitled whiner. Might I suggest some self reflection?



As for a $5-6 dollar shirt, does that mean it's $2 wholesale? Who would want a shirt that cheap? No thanks.










Ungrateful Ams. Sheesh.

 

[autocrosscrx]

...and over here, I'm struggling with the concept that one can pay a small fee to enter a tournament as an amateur, get to compete, get documented sanctioned results, get free stuff that retails for the bulk of the cost of the event entry, ...

...AND beyond all of that have the opportunity to win things. It doesn't make any sense to me how we can even have tournaments.

 

[Dingus]

equals $2500 total profit for the event...

... potential to make some decent cash running events is most definitely available. The question is how much is too much?

Based on everything I know about running a tournament, that $2500 is NOT decent cash, it is a slaves wage. The only exception is if you also run a disc golf retail store and have all the inventory already. In which case it is a necessary part of your existence, in order to compete against online retailers and manufacturer direct sales. I don't know any disc golf store owners that are living the good life.

 

[rocthecourse]

So many whiners in this thread, players whining about TDs making too much money and TDs whining because they don't make enough.

 

[dehaas]

Ha so allow me to blow some minds for a quick second...

I'm not playing nearly as much disc golf lately, got back into running after about a 20 year hiatus since high school. Got back with a few standard road races, and quickly found I prefer the trail and ultra marathon stuff a lot better.

$60-70 for a race entry is on the cheaper end of things, with $100+ being common for 50 milers and $150+ common for 100k and 100 milers.

Typically you'll receive a shirt of some type, and some type of finisher's medal. Couple of aid stations providing food and water, and if you string together a solid run maybe an extra age group trophy. Similar to a disc golf tournament, permit and shelter rental costs, insurance, paying for a timing system, things like that. Virtually no prizes given out aside from hardware and no pdga fees taken out of entry. Most race registration site fees are tacked on at checkout and not taken out of the entry fee itself. Race fields similar to that of a dg tournament if not bigger...

The vibe at the event? Nobody wanting a break down of financials, typically it's the exact opposite. People going out of their way to thank race directors and volunteers, and very grateful of the work put in to host a race.

Same situation as disc golf, race directors aren't doing it to become rich...it's a labor of love. The few race directors I personally know might make a couple bucks at the end of the day, but after you factor in all the time and effort put into things it's pennies on the dollar. Most have full time regular jobs and it's something on the side they just kinda got into.

The big difference...people go into those races for the experience. Sure everybody wants to go out to compete and see how they stack up, but that's essentially secondary. That's why you don't see people griping after the race of online after it's all said and done.

 

[davetherocketguy]

So many whiners in this thread, players whining about TDs making too much money and TDs whining because they don't make enough.

When did I say I'm not making enough?

 

[ru4por]

Don't forget the TD or whoever provides the merchandise for the winner's vouchers is also making coin on the Cost vs Retail Value. So in the end, the guy paid $50, there were 25 teams in the division for a total of $1,250. The players pack cost was $14 ($8 + $6) x 25 = $350. Approx cost for the $350 in winner certificate prizes is let's say $200. So we are at $550. Let's say between PDGA & DG Scene is $5 per player = $125. Now up to $675. Water, scorecards, etc let's add another $3pp or $75 total. So we are at $750 in costs, which equals a $500 profit for the various parties (Club, TD, disc vendor.) If there were 5 divisions, this equals $2500 total profit for the event. Unknown if there was a course charge, parking, etc. If sponsor signs were sold the total profit would be elevated above that $2500 mark.

I have never bitched about cost vs. value, but the potential to make some decent cash running events is most definitely available. The question is how much is too much?

This is pretty good start, but you would have to start adding the nickle and dimes from this point. Cost of closing the courses, cost of renting the courses, cost of renting the picnic shelter, cost of event insurance, cost of the porta potty, cost of printing, cost of artwork, cost of trophies, cost of OB paint. Amortized costs of tents, tables, practice baskets, banners, brooms, garden tools, fence posts, fence post hammer tool, coolers and tons of tiny items worth little but fill the TD box with all the tools needed. Not to mention the capital always tied up in merch.

I am not saying someone could not make a living from a TD/disc store enterprise. I just think it would be a meager living.

 

[Dcinmd]

The OP is asking how to handle a problem. The responses are not suggesting solutions and instead state there is no problem.

Uh huh Sure. OP did exactly as recommend and found the answer he was looking for.

Just email the TD (asap) and ask for a break down how everything was calculated. I've done that in the past, sure you'll get a response like "Sorry you are not happy with the event, maybe this event isn't for you next time", but they will reply with the break down, not in cost/profit but in retail value. I'm pretty sure they are obligated to have the data available to the public anyway if someone asks.

 

[DavidSauls]

This is pretty good start, but you would have to start adding the nickle and dimes from this point. Cost of closing the courses, cost of renting the courses, cost of renting the picnic shelter, cost of event insurance, cost of the porta potty, cost of printing, cost of artwork, cost of trophies, cost of OB paint. Amortized costs of tents, tables, practice baskets, banners, brooms, garden tools, fence posts, fence post hammer tool, coolers and tons of tiny items worth little but fill the TD box with all the tools needed. Not to mention the capital always tied up in merch.

I am not saying someone could not make a living from a TD/disc store enterprise. I just think it would be a meager living.

That $2,500 in ballgolfcovert's calculation came from 5 divisions of 25 players --- or 125 total. Presumably, that's a 2-course event, so you can double a lot of those fixed costs.

In the magical world of no other costs, $2,500 from 120 players is $20 per player. $20 to play a tournament....is that outrageous? In a real world, more like $10 per player of "profit". $10 to play a tournament.....is that a good deal?

 

[Golden Tuna]

The big difference...

...is the target audience.

I have volunteered for a variety of organizations over the years and disc golfers are some of the most entitled.

I was having this conversation the other day at my daughter's soccer game. I was talking to another parent, explaining that I did not understand how they're organizing the league this year (with COVID).

We agreed that there are a lot of moving parts that we do not understand and we're not about to complain to a volunteer. I took a moment to share a little about the (amateur) pro disc golf tour and some of the complaints I've received as a TD. She was awestruck...

I know that 10's of dollars (of merch) are on the line, but do we really have to take it that seriously?...