Inability to count throws

[Nova P]

Everyone forgets a throw once in a while. It happens, especially on long par fives or when things go tits-up, or when someone makes a truly unfortunate throw that they subconsciously wish had never happened. That's why the group must come to a consensus when writing down the scores on the card.

But. . .

What do you do, and what can you do, when someone chronically mis-counts their throws, and always on the low side? After how many repetitions of the dreary routine of walking through every throw on the preceding hole does the "benefit of the doubt" go away, it become something which must be addressed, and how does one address it?

 

[JC17393]

Everyone forgets a throw once in a while. It happens, especially on long par fives or when things go tits-up, or when someone makes a truly unfortunate throw that they subconsciously wish had never happened. That's why the group must come to a consensus when writing down the scores on the card.

But. . .

What do you do, and what can you do, when someone chronically mis-counts their throws, and always on the low side? After how many repetitions of the dreary routine of walking through every throw on the preceding hole does the "benefit of the doubt" go away, it become something which must be addressed, and how does one address it?

If it really is a chronic thing, you just have to call them out for it. If they're reporting incorrect scores and you have to do the throw-by-throw replay thing repeatedly, tell them that it's becoming a problem they need to fix.

At least to start, frame it as trying to help them remember their score more accurately rather than making it seem like you suspect they're trying to cheating. Suggest counting out loud before or after each throw ("that was for three" or "this is my fourth") or putting check marks on the card for each throw or something along those lines to assist their memory. I might even go so far as to ask mid-hole what number throw they're on, in the spirit of helping, of course.

In that way, if it is just poor memory on their part, they will feel like you're trying to help. If it is something they're doing intentionally to try to shave strokes, the fact that you make it known you're paying attention should tell them they're not going to get away with it, which also should be enough to curb the behavior.

 

[ronnie]

Hand them a golf shot counter thing.

 

[Consult20]

Nip it in the bud, it's up to them to count correctly. The first time they give a wrong score let them know it's on them to count correctly and the consequences of mis-counting. Getting pencil whipped sucks and mis-counting once bad enough, but more than once is an issue and they should be called out and penalized. I have a zero tolerance for players who can't count their strokes correctly, and I don't care if they think I'm a dick for calling them out.

 

[Nova P]

Just so I'm sure, what is the penalty for repeated mis-counting? I can't find it specifically in the rules, so what is cited when someone's doing this?

 

[Consult20]

Just so I'm sure, what is the penalty for repeated mis-counting? I can't find it specifically in the rules, so what is cited when someone's doing this?

Warning first, then a 2 stroke penalty for each subsequent violation -- that is my understanding, rules gurus correct me if I am wrong.

The warning should be noted on the back or in the margins of the card, indicating the player's name, the hole the warning was given, and the actual warning. If violations occur after the warning, those should be noted by hole as well.

You can add 2 circles around their score, or add 2 p's in the score box. But note the hole the violation(s) occurred next to the warning note as well. Gotta keep a good audit trail for the TD, so it's clear what happened and when.

 

[Jay Dub]

I know someone who "mis-remembers" his score a few holes each round. He always wants to keep score and never calls out the scores or asks for the scores of others on the card like the rules say to do.

Fortunately we don't play golf on the same card unless we're assigned the same hole and he's so bad at golf that most don't seem to care.

But it's still cheating by a cheater.

 

[coupe]

Just so I'm sure, what is the penalty for repeated mis-counting? I can't find it specifically in the rules, so what is cited when someone's doing this?

The Rules do not mandate a specific penalty for miscounting. The most directly applicable rule is 801.04.D:

Refusal to perform an action expected by the rules, such as assisting in the search for a lost disc, moving discs or equipment, or keeping score properly, is a courtesy violation.

First one's a warning; subsequent occurrences are one penalty stroke (second required); repeated courtesy violations are subject to DQ.

With the advent of smartphones and compact digital cameras, a number of SGMs and Legends have gotten in the habit of taking a pic of their lie for every throw in order to ensure they don't forget one (or more). Seems like a good suggestion for chronic mis-counters.

 

[JC17393]

Warning first, then a 2 stroke penalty for each subsequent violation -- that is my understanding, rules gurus correct me if I am wrong.

The warning should be noted on the back or in the margins of the card, indicating the player's name, the hole the warning was given, and the actual warning. If violations occur after the warning, those should be noted by hole as well.

You can add 2 circles around their score, or add 2 p's in the score box. But note the hole the violation(s) occurred next to the warning note as well. Gotta keep a good audit trail for the TD, so it's clear what happened and when.

Players can't assess penalties to another player for incorrect scores unless it's via courtesy violations as coupe suggests. The two throw penalty you're referring to is for submitting an incorrect score card to the TD post-round.

If subtlety doesn't work (gentle reminders, extra vigilance on your part, etc) then the process is officially giving a courtesy warning him for failing to keep score properly. But really, that's a step you only want to take if you're sure that the guy is intentionally trying to shave strokes and that he's not just scatter-brained.

 

[mark996]

My first tournament, we had a guy on the first round card that did this the first 3 holes. At first we thought it was just a mishap, but on a wide open par 4, we all took 3's and he tried to give himself a 2. I knew another guy on the card from casual rounds, not a buddy just acquaintance, and we decided that each time he holed out, we'd tell him "Nice #" and see what happened. So on the next hole we both said, loudly enough for him to hear clearly, "Nice 4". Don't know if he was trying to stroke the card or what, but that put an end to it.

 

[corin_brown]

This kind of thing has only happened a couple of times to me but I can't imagine a more sociopathic, anti-social behavior than chronic cheating in this way. Those people should be put into the blocks in the public square.

 

[FredV]

Some of these posts do show some awareness that our sport does not screen players for their cognitive abilities, where any group we play in may include persons who are genuinely challenged. In my division MS1, memory can be an issue lol. Embarrassment might be avoided where someone can be the friend of one who struggles. Some folks would rather be known as a cheater than a "dummy".

 

[Consult20]

Players can't assess penalties to another player for incorrect scores unless it's via courtesy violations as coupe suggests. The two throw penalty you're referring to is for submitting an incorrect score card to the TD post-round.

If subtlety doesn't work (gentle reminders, extra vigilance on your part, etc) then the process is officially giving a courtesy warning him for failing to keep score properly. But really, that's a step you only want to take if you're sure that the guy is intentionally trying to shave strokes and that he's not just scatter-brained.

Yes thanks for the clarification JC.

If someone genuinely has a difficult time counting strokes it can be simpler to just break it up into the number of throws to get to the "green" and the number of putts -- on in 2 and 2 putts for a 4, etc.

 

[B3NDER]

The person who is unable to apply simple mathematics to obtain a score, simply doesn't play on my card/in my group. Sorry bud, if you can't perform stuff that has been a part of your life since kindergarten, you've got bigger issues than playing disc golf.

Besides, at the end of the day what does 'editing' your score really do? YOU still know what you actually threw, do you honestly believe anyone thinks you're cooler/a better person because you had a "few" less shots on your score? Please.

 

[araytx]

If it really is a chronic thing, you just have to call them out for it. If they're reporting incorrect scores and you have to do the throw-by-throw replay thing repeatedly, tell them that it's becoming a problem they need to fix.

At least to start, frame it as trying to help them remember their score more accurately rather than making it seem like you suspect they're trying to cheating. Suggest counting out loud before or after each throw ("that was for three" or "this is my fourth") or putting check marks on the card for each throw or something along those lines to assist their memory. I might even go so far as to ask mid-hole what number throw they're on, in the spirit of helping, of course.

In that way, if it is just poor memory on their part, they will feel like you're trying to help. If it is something they're doing intentionally to try to shave strokes, the fact that you make it known you're paying attention should tell them they're not going to get away with it, which also should be enough to curb the behavior.

My first tournament, we had a guy on the first round card that did this the first 3 holes. At first we thought it was just a mishap, but on a wide open par 4, we all took 3's and he tried to give himself a 2. I knew another guy on the card from casual rounds, not a buddy just acquaintance, and we decided that each time he holed out, we'd tell him "Nice #" and see what happened. So on the next hole we both said, loudly enough for him to hear clearly, "Nice 4". Don't know if he was trying to stroke the card or what, but that put an end to it.

This.^^^ Nip it in the bud right off the bat. When I encounter this I begin by just like JC, frame it around helping them to remember. And if I suspect they might be either overly forgetful or intentionally pulling a fast one, the next time they do it I'll always add the quick "no you had a four, you must have forgotten about having to pitch out on your second shot" or something like that mentioning a specific throw. This sets the table in his mind for "I remember all your shots and we'll go one-by-one if I have to." If it goes beyond that, then I start by calling my own number on each shot, then theirs. "This is my second,..." "my tap-in makes three,..." followed by "what number is this for you?" beginning with his second shot -- and with the most polite positive face I can put on.

I know a player in my local division who tends to do this and I was warned about him several years ago. Back before I was any good and didn't know any better, a guy on my card told me about this player shaving strokes when calling out his score. I clearly recalled him 4-putting a hole, then when everyone called out scores he said "four". As a newbie I was thinking, "you 'sixed', man, but I was too green to know what to do. Now that I have equalled and probably surpassed him, I watch and I do what I said above. You can't let them pencil-whip you or the scorekeeper.

 

[JeremyKShort]

I get it when it's a hole from hell, and you're trying to count (was that a 7 or an 8??). I'll give anyone the benefit of the doubt on that.

But just regular normal holes, should be pretty easy to remember. Gotta call them out on that stuff.

 

[The Shide]

OP: Are you talking about an actual tourney, a league or a casual round?

 

[Nova P]

OP: Are you talking about an actual tourney, a league or a casual round?

I'm asking about what to do in a PDGA-sanctioned tournament.

 

[The Shide]

Well, if it's a tourney, then you'll need to do as has been suggested above by many, and that is to call the person out on it. Then it becomes the burden of the cardmates to have to "babysit" this person to ensure they are counting strokes correctly. The rule book doesn't have a paragraph addressing the number of times a person is allowed to "forget" the strokes they just finished throwing. But it would seem that if they are willfully miscounting strokes, you could give a warning, then a courtesy violation for every occurrence thereafter. Cheating is clearly stated as a violation. Of course, there is the disciplinary process, if all else fails. Good luck.

 

[stratedge]

Another thing I recommend people do for people like this, is also keep their score separately on your phone or something, and then check later that they reported it correctly to the TD/staff. As a practice I put everyone on my card on my phone and track hole by hole scores separate from the official score cards.

Cheaters will cheat, and most of the C tiers I play don't have scorers signing other players cards, just the player themselves, so it gives them the opportunity to modify their scorecard before they hand it in. I haven't actually seen this happen mind you, but usually everyone knows quite well I'm tracking scores on my phone (I don't hide it), and so I think that's very preventative of any issues. But many tournaments make it too easy.