im pretty sure i have one
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[Innova] INNOVA Naming mistakes/mold change without a name change
- Thread starter elnino
- Start date
im pretty sure i have one
captain jack
* Ace Member *
What about the VM ?
Its a Valkyrie top with a Monarch bottom.
Its a Valkyrie top with a Monarch bottom.
toothyfish
* Ace Member *
Add the Viper...the DX Viper is the normal mold, but the CFR (Champion) Viper is an X-mold. The wing is thicker at the very edge.
Also, the Gazelle, which you have listed, you could add the original mold was the Ontario and the current is a Rancho. They are different, though it's slight.
Also, the Gazelle, which you have listed, you could add the original mold was the Ontario and the current is a Rancho. They are different, though it's slight.
agent_peebody
* Ace Member *
i like this thread, i learn something new here erry day
toothyfish
* Ace Member *
The point earlier about the Teebird is interesting...there is the CAL (lnnova) engraving and the CA (Innova) engraving but I don't see any differences. the CAL mold ones are flatter and more overstable but that could also be an affect of the cooling, plastic, etc. not a difference in the mold itself.
Alright. My addition.
Yes, the Beast has an "old mold" and "new mold".
The regular beast(no endorsement) and the Barry 1x is what we know today as the ORC.
The new "Beast" is an L mold of the old mold/ORC
Yes, the Beast has an "old mold" and "new mold".
The regular beast(no endorsement) and the Barry 1x is what we know today as the ORC.
The new "Beast" is an L mold of the old mold/ORC
agent_peebody
* Ace Member *
old mold beasts are NOT the same as orcs. similar, yes. but the same, no.
How are they different? they are identical in measurements and in flight.
agent_peebody
* Ace Member *
mine aren't shaped the same at all. the beasts have a beefier wing
Beefier meaning what? The old Beasts and Orcs I've had all have the same top, same rim depth, same rim width and same curviture on the wing. They throw the same. I wish I could find flight specs, but all I've ever been able to find is specs for the new mold. Its unclear why the Beast mold was ever changed, but might have something to do with Barry Shultz, so maybe we could ask him.
Anyways, to me, the Orc is the Beast X and the 2xBeast is a Beast L
Anyways, to me, the Orc is the Beast X and the 2xBeast is a Beast L
agent_peebody
* Ace Member *
my orcs are more curved, where my beasts are flatter with a clear bevel on the rim towards the center of the disc.
personally, i think the valk rim is similar to the old mold beasts, just a little thinner
personally, i think the valk rim is similar to the old mold beasts, just a little thinner
This is where it gets a little scetchy...
We all know that "domeyness" can differ significantly between molds of any disc, which makes that hard to be definitive.
Frank Delicious
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2006
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- 16,244
old most beasts and Orcs are not the same, they are very close but not the same. The beast was retooled b/c of how close it was to the orc.
agent_peebody
* Ace Member *
word. the orc is more curved and the very edge of the disc isn't as beefy
mabraddock
Birdie Member
i have two champ orcs, one that's a couple years old and is real flat, i got an other one (cause i thought i lost the first one) and domey as hell.... doesn't fly nearly the same but does seem to glide a little more (and fade a lot more)...
I guess the Orc/Beast can be left up for debate.
It just doesnt make sense to me that they would create a new mold that does the same and is "almost" identical the same disc, then retool the existing name? Why not just retool the mold and make the retooled disc a different name?
ThreePutt?
It just doesnt make sense to me that they would create a new mold that does the same and is "almost" identical the same disc, then retool the existing name? Why not just retool the mold and make the retooled disc a different name?
ThreePutt?
Frank Delicious
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2006
- Messages
- 16,244
It's not really a debate. The old mold beast was less stable than an orc and from what I remember Dave D didn't plan for the orc to turn out close as close to the beast as it did. They were kinda in uncharted territory with the rim width of the beast/orc at the time.
The Orc is not the old mold Beast.
The Orc turned out to be very close to the old mold Beast, so Innova retooled the Beast. Bad move? I think so. To me it would have made more sense to retool the new Orc into something more stable than to turn the established Beast into something less stable, but Dave D didn't call and ask me what I thought.
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Marmoset
* Ace Member *
Not that Frank needs it but I'll back him on the Orc/Beast story.
This info is patched together from the Dave D thread on the PDGA forums.
Dave D made the Beast in December of 2002. It was the awesomest disc ever. Then the Orc came out in January of 2004. It was supposed to be more overstable than it turned out to be but it was still the awesomest thing ever... for 2004. Even more awesome than the Beast. The only problem was that it was very similar to the Beast. So Dave D elled the wing of Beast a little bit to make it less overstable and to justify keeping both molds in the Innova stable. The Orc was hot stuff and Dave D didn't want to modify his hottest seller and leave the Beast unscathed. And Dave D worked on "fixing" the Orc and came up with the Wraith in August of 2005. I think Dave's "misfire" with the Orc was rectified by the Wraith.
Coincidentally, the Wraith wing is 0.1cm wider than the Orc. So even if there was significant overlap he could more easily justify keeping a "speed 10" disc and a "speed 11" disc even if they had the same flight numbers.
This info is patched together from the Dave D thread on the PDGA forums.
Dave D made the Beast in December of 2002. It was the awesomest disc ever. Then the Orc came out in January of 2004. It was supposed to be more overstable than it turned out to be but it was still the awesomest thing ever... for 2004. Even more awesome than the Beast. The only problem was that it was very similar to the Beast. So Dave D elled the wing of Beast a little bit to make it less overstable and to justify keeping both molds in the Innova stable. The Orc was hot stuff and Dave D didn't want to modify his hottest seller and leave the Beast unscathed. And Dave D worked on "fixing" the Orc and came up with the Wraith in August of 2005. I think Dave's "misfire" with the Orc was rectified by the Wraith.
Coincidentally, the Wraith wing is 0.1cm wider than the Orc. So even if there was significant overlap he could more easily justify keeping a "speed 10" disc and a "speed 11" disc even if they had the same flight numbers.
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garublador
* Ace Member *
I agree with that. Now the new Beast is similar to the Sidewinder, which IMO isn't a good mold at all. I think the biggest logical problem I have with it is that the old mold Beast was awesome in DX plastic and the Orc sucks in DX plastic. I have always thought Champ Orcs and Beasts were both good, but not great but the DX Beast was pretty much perfect for rotating and got really good and longer as it wore in.
I suppose I understand that the Orc outsold the Beast so it made more sense to keep it around, but I think their lineup would be better had they done it my way.
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