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[Innova] Innova Speed Ratings = Richter Scale

DaddyD

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Joined
Jun 11, 2010
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8
Location
Springfield, MO
Does anyone know how to convert Innova's speed rating scale to something that I can relate to? I have about as much chance understanding it as I do the Richter scale. I know that "10" is faster than "8", but how much faster? (And don't say 2, smart guy.) How fast is "8" to begin with?

I much prefer the straightforward approach that Vibram takes with its ratings. Vibram actually gives the speed in miles per hour, which is a measurable, objective number that I can relate to. If I can't throw 56 MPH, I know that a particular disc isn't for me, but with Innova, I have no way of determining how fast I need to be able to throw to get the proper flight out of an "11" speed disc.
 
Go to gottagogottathrow.com & look at Joe's Flight Chart. They give a general distance/power level you need to throw to get the proper flights of different discs
 
Unlike the Richter scale, in which a 6.0 earthquake is ten times as big as a 5.0 earthquake, the Innova speed ratings are more of a flat slope. Beyond that it's a tricky question, since Innova's numbers are based on some kind of feel of the disc, rather than anything scientific. Even with Vibram, how do you know how fast you can throw? Do you have a radar gun at your disposal?

The easiest, though maybe a bit of a punk answer, is to figure out what is the fastest disc that you can get to produce its intended natural flight path. That's your limit.
 
Yep, I don't think the speed rating = actual speed. More of comparing two discs
It sorta does, it's just that an actual MPH rating needed to control a particular disc isn't any more useful because
Lewis said:
Do you have a radar gun at your disposal?
To add to the confusion, the thing is that the initial speed you can generate with a "faster" disc is actually slower than what you can do with a "slower" disc. That has actually been measured with a radar gun.

I agree that Joe's is the best way to really rate them. How easy they are to throw is a lot more useful and easier to understand than "speed." You can have faster discs that are easier to control or slower discs that are longer.

I'll also note that "speed" also tells you how well a disc penetrates into (i.e. how much a disc's distance, but not stability is affected by) the wind.
 
Innova's speed ratings aren't exactly perfect, but playing for a while with different speed discs and reading up on what they 'should' do if thrown well should give you an idea. It definitely isn't a concrete system, but once you get used to it it makes sense

And btw, a somewhat helpful bit of info for me was the fact that a faster disc would hit the ground before a slower disc thrown the same distance at the same time...

aj
 
I think Triflusal's correct: Innova's Speed ratings seem to be based entirely on rim width, rather than being based on the release velocity out of the hand. While I can't attest to any actual numbers (I never measured), the general statement agrees with my observations.

Most of us equate disc speed with required release velocity - that works for me, but I think Innova sees it differently (dare I say, incorrectly)? From their website: "Speed is the ability of the disc to cut through the air. Speed Ratings are listed from 1 to 13. Discs with high numbers are faster." Doesn't even hint at how fast the disc needs to be launched. To me, that means "how fast does the disc lose it's initial velocity?" Presumably, a faster disc should go farther over the same period of time as a slower disc thrown at same speed - not necessarily what I've observed.

Also from their site: "The Vulcan was designed for less powerful players that want to throw the shots of their dreams." Say what you will about technique (and you'd likely be correct), all other things being equal, less powerful players wouldn't be expected to throw as fast as big arms, so why the need for a speed 13 disc for less powerful players if it was meant to be thrown at high speed? Apparently, that's not what they necessarily intended.


That being said, I think Innova kind of missed the mark on their definition and application of speed ratings. I think an more objective "velocity you need to launch a disc at to make it behave as intended" makes sense. Discs made for less powerful arms should have lower speed ratings, regardless of the rim width.
 
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generally. some discs with smaller rims and lower profiles might be rated as faster than their rim, likewise, a disc with a wider rim than its speed probably has a blunter nose.

look at the tech specs for actual discs. the ape is 2.4 and rated as speed 13 so its not a hard and fast rule but it will be fairly accurate
 
To add to the confusion, the thing is that the initial speed you can generate with a "faster" disc is actually slower than what you can do with a "slower" disc. That has actually been measured with a radar gun.

I have read this from you before and I still take issue with it. I'm not saying that wide rimmed drivers are faster out of the hand by default, but just because some guy goes out with a radar gun doesn't make his "study" scientific or reliable. He just may be able to throw narrow rims with better snap than wide rims. It doesn't mean that will apply evenly across a wide spectrum of golfers.

At any rate, what is the confusion here? Speed = drag. Higher speed = less drag.
 
Sorry, had to do something , and got hit the 5 min edit wall.

To elabortae on my earlier comment:
Innova's definition seems to equate to "how fast does the disc lose its initial velocity?" (i.e. drag, as stated above).

Presumably, a faster disc should go farther over the same period of time as a slower disc thrown at same speed - not necessarily what I've observed. I've observed that faster discs go farther because they can be thrown harder, so they have greater velocity to begin with. In order to do this, (again, all things being equal), faster discs must "behave" with greater stability, to allow them to thrown at greater velocities without crashing and burning.

That being said, not all higher speed discs are more stable than lower speed discs – other factors come into play. I'm just trying to isolate the variable of speed.
 
It's been said before, but Innova's rating system seems ideally geared towards promoting sales by invoking the "pokemon phenomenon" and making people wanna collect em' all, rather than giving players an actual idea of what they're throwing. When explaining speed to new players, I tell them that the higher the speed, the higher the maximum potential. Along with higher speed comes a need for more power/arm speed and less general control of the disc's flight.
 
I have read this from you before and I still take issue with it. I'm not saying that wide rimmed drivers are faster out of the hand by default, but just because some guy goes out with a radar gun doesn't make his "study" scientific or reliable. He just may be able to throw narrow rims with better snap than wide rims. It doesn't mean that will apply evenly across a wide spectrum of golfers.
The sample size is small, but there zero evidence to show that he's wrong. I know, at the very least, he did it with him and another guy and it confirmed what some have been saying for a while. It's another piece of evidence backing up a sound theory. If you look at how humans are put together, it makes sense that you can get a stronger grip (stronger rip, more speed) on a narrower rimmed disc. If the rim gets wide enough you can only use the end two segments of your fingers to grip the disc. You don't get to use the segment closest to your hand and that will cause a big drop off in grip strength, which causes a drop off in speed out of the hand. For me (6'2", "average" sized hands) this happens around speed 9-10.

The aerodynamics of a disc have little to do with the launch velocity. We're strong enough to overcome the drag. Having a tighter grip allows a stronger rip and more speed. Play tug-of-war with an Epic sometime and see which side you end up choosing to win. Whomever has the narrower side will have the advantage.

Once the disc leaves your hand it's all about aerodynamics, and that's the speed the rating is addressing.
 
For sure, aerodynamics has nothing to do with release speed. I just feel as though for someone with large hands the wide rim would be no issue. Maybe the size of hand required for 2.5 cm is not humanly possible.
 
I've observed that faster discs go farther because they can be thrown harder, so they have greater velocity to begin with. In order to do this, (again, all things being equal), faster discs must "behave" with greater stability, to allow them to thrown at greater velocities without crashing and burning.
I agree with some of your observations, but not your conclusion. Wizards, BB Aviars, Challengers, Rocs and a bunch of other slow discs can be thrown just as hard as any high speed disc and, as I've stated in other posts, actually have a higher initial velocity. They don't go as far because they slow down more during the flight than faster discs.

What it sounds like you're observing is that fast discs tend to fade out early if not thrown fast enough, which is true. If you don't get a disc to it's "cruise speed" (the speed it needs to go to get it to "glide") it will fade out early and act more HSS than designed. The flight will be more projectile-like rather than flying disc-like. So if you get a disc up to speed you'll not only get the advantage of the extra speed you put on the disc, but you'll get the advantage of it actually gliding. This is easy to observe in a headwind. Many times people will find they can throw their super fast discs farther into a headwind than they can in no wind. It's because they're getting the discs to actually fly.

You don't observe this with slower discs becasue their cruise speed is so low. If you toss a Roc 50' you'll see it easily, but if you're always throwing it 200'+ you'll never see it. A 50' Roc flight looks way different than a 300' Roc flight. However a 250' Roc flight and a 300' Roc flight look similar but might be thrown different heights. The 50' flight never gets to the cruise speed, but the 250' and 300' (or even 350') ones, do.

You'll probably never see it with a putter because everything you throw that's under its cruise speed is either supposed to fly like a projectile or can be compensated for by adding extra spin, which you can't do enough with high speed discs to overcome the lack of speed.

One consequence of this is that if a fast disc is enough high speed understable then it will quickly go from overstable and fading out early to high speed understable once you hit that cruise speed. That can make predicting where it will land difficult. I had this problem with Illusions. They'd act pretty overstable unless you misread the wind a tiny bit and/or got a particularly good rip. Then instead of seeing the hyzer you wanted, you'd get a big turnover. In my case that usually meant losing the disc.

On the flip side if you exceed a certain speed for any given disc the disc will get more and more high speed understable (pun intended). Some do this gradually (Eagle, OLF, Cyclone) but some do it rather abruptly (e.g. Sidewinder, Archangel, most lids). The former are much easier to control and tend to be more "predictable." Some discs have a super wide cruise speed range. Most putters, mids and overstable drivers that are commonly recommended are like this. The Teebird is the classic example because it flies straight for anyone throwing more than like 280'. I'm not sure what the upper end of it is, but it's farther than most people, even top pros, throw for golf shots.

I like to use and recommend discs that have a large cruise speed range. They're just so much more forgiving and are good indicators of when you did something more right. A better throw will go farther. With some discs a better throw might turn over more and look like a worse throw.

This is also a good time to define "squirrely." When I (and many others) say a disc is "squirrely" what we really mean is that the disc has a very narrow band for its cruise speed and has abrupt high speed stability change when you meet or exceed the cruise speed. They can also be extra sensitive to nose angle which seems to have a similar effect to being sensitive to speed.
 
For sure, aerodynamics has nothing to do with release speed. I just feel as though for someone with large hands the wide rim would be no issue. Maybe the size of hand required for 2.5 cm is not humanly possible.
Hand size definitely comes into play. Grip strength, too. Maybe it's best to break it in to two parts. A stronger grip will get you a faster launch velocity. You get a stronger grip with a narrower rim.
 
I like to use and recommend discs that have a large cruise speed range. They're just so much more forgiving and are good indicators of when you did something more right. A better throw will go farther. With some discs a better throw might turn over more and look like a worse throw.

This is also a good time to define "squirrely." When I (and many others) say a disc is "squirrely" what we really mean is that the disc has a very narrow band for its cruise speed and has abrupt high speed stability change when you meet or exceed the cruise speed. They can also be extra sensitive to nose angle which seems to have a similar effect to being sensitive to speed.
Points well taken, your words makes sense.

So, might we also be able to surmise that, for the most part: squirrely discs (due to their narrow bands and sensitive nature) are intended for experienced players, who; understand their intended use, know how to throw them, and are therefore more likely to achieve good results with them?

Moreover (can't believe I'm saying this)....
Perhaps Innova should issue yet another rating to express a disc's cruise speed is, and how wide it's range is (e.g. cruise speed: 20-40 mph).
I'M KIDDING!!!! :p

The last thing I'm advocating is more numbers :doh:
...but to a certain degree, it really would take a lot of guesswork out of it.

Nonetheless, disc manufacturers remain "for profit" companies, and I can't put sheer marketing and selling to the masess beyond them. I wouldn't say they make stuff up, but I would say they'll do whatever it takes to sell more plastic. Every year there's something bigger, badder, faster, more, less... there's a disc for every superlative under the sun.


Under lessons learned: think I'll to check your threads to see what discs have a larger sweet spot, do some open field test flights to coroborate, and perhaps get some plastic outta my bag. :thmbup:

Now: it's off to leagues!
 
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