Interference

[cheesethin]

i am not arguing that the rules as written allow for it. i am arguing that the rules would make more sense if equipment that is sitting in a perfectly reasonable spot is treated as part of the course rather than randomly penalizing a player unlucky enough to have a disc roll back and strike it.

Ok. But I disagree that equipment behind your lie is, by default, 'perfectly reasonable' in all situations. What makes it so reasonable? Especially on uphill putts? Why is it not reasonable to expect someone to just stick their bag off to one side, and not downhill of the basket? On flat fairway shots - sure, but downhill on a steep slope with a tricky putt - nah.

Saying roll-aways are random ignores the fact that NOT all shots or holes are EQUALLY likely to produce roll-aways. And that it is easy to identify the high risk shots/holes, and it is easy to mitigate the risk.

The possibility of the rare fluke shot that somehow happens to unexpectedly and 'unfairly' hit your own bag, isn't enough justification to treat the player's kit as part of the course. Doing that allows all sorts of gamesmanship to creep in.

 

[IHearChains]

There seems to be a theme repeated here that unintentional interference by a players equipment on another players throw results in a penalty. Where are you all seeing that?

The only penalty is for a player's equipment on their own throw. 810.F

Right, but the point I am making is not about those types of penalties. My point is that the rules clearly establish that there are two separate classes of equipment, and that they are treated differently: markers/discs-in-play and "all other equipment".

You can ask another player to remove their "all other equipment" if you think it might interfere with your throw or another players throw, and issue a courtesy warning/violation if they refuse. You cannot make such a request about markers/discs-in-play.

By extension, your own markers/discs-in-play are treated differently from your own "all other equipment" when it comes to penalties. Your marker is required to be there, so you should not be penalized for interference if your next throw touches it. You can't be required to move your mini til the next lie is established, because until that time, it is still establishing the current lie, which may be important for purposes of optional rethrow, foot-fault calls, etc. You can't be expected to find a better place to put the mini so that it's out of the way; it is required to be in one specific location by rule.

 

[cheesethin]

.... Your marker is required to be there, so you should not be penalized for interference if your next throw touches it. You can't be required to move your mini til the next lie is established, because until that time, it is still establishing the current lie, which may be important for purposes of optional rethrow, foot-fault calls, etc. You can't be expected to find a better place to put the mini so that it's out of the way; it is required to be in one specific location by rule.

I also agree that the rules should be written to give mini-markers special exemption from interference rules along with discs in play. I don't think they do as currently written.

But the bolded bits are not technically true, you are not REQUIRED to leave the mini in place after you have released your disc. Steve said it in #18, you can pick up your mini while the disc is in flight. For abandoned throws, you don't leave you mini on the ground, walk 250', check your new lie, and then walk back and get your mini. If you do abandon your throw, the groups agrees on the location of your previous lie. In the case of roll-away putts, that wouldn't be hard. And if anyone intends to call a stance violation they are required to do it promptly, and once it has been called, (deliberately) moving your mini to impede the process would be poor sportsmanship (cheating).

Leaving your marker in position can be beneficial at times, but the rules only REQUIRE the marker disc to be in position up to the point you have released your disc.

 

[IHearChains]

you are not REQUIRED to leave the mini in place after you have released your disc. Steve said it in #18, you can pick up your mini while the disc is in flight. ...
Leaving your marker in position can be beneficial at times, but the rules only REQUIRE the marker disc to be in position up to the point you have released your disc.

Agree. But I didn't say you're required to leave it in place, I said you can't be required to move it...may seem like splitting hairs, but it's meaningful.

As I alluded to before, in a situation when there are two different things in the path of your rollaway, which should you be required to move when you don't have time to move both? In the video of the OP, I would argue the other equipment (towel and disc not in play) were the things that should have been moved, not the mini. He clearly didn't have time to do both, so to require that is really not reasonable. And by rule he has the obligation to make sure that other stuff is out of the way, but not the mini.

 

[krupicka]

You can ask another player to remove their "all other equipment" if you think it might interfere with your throw or another players throw, and issue a courtesy warning/violation if they refuse. You cannot make such a request about markers/discs-in-play.
.

What rule prevents you from making that request?

810.H explicitly allows it in some cases.
810.B says what to do if a marker disc has been moved.

I've also seen in practice where a player requests another player to mark their DROT prior to proceeding with their putt so as to avoid potential interference.

 

[IHearChains]

What rule prevents you from making that request?

810.H explicitly allows it in some cases.
810.B says what to do if a marker disc has been moved.

I've also seen in practice where a player requests another player to mark their DROT prior to proceeding with their putt so as to avoid potential interference.

Fair points.

In practice, though...what would happen if on each hole I said "OK Joe Schmoe is putting now, everyone in our group must pick up their discs/minis because they might interfere."

The whole group would then need to discuss and agree upon the location to replace each of the lies. Eventually this would make it impossible for the group to make reasonable efforts to keep up with the group in front of them.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Which would open up the possibility of the thrower intentionally throwing a disc at their opponents or their equipment. Would you like to rethink your position?

No.That wouldn't be interference would it? If I throw at the basket, the basket doesn't "interfere" with my throw just because the disc hits it. If a player intentionally throws at anything and hits it, there is not interference by the object intentionally hit.

 

[DavidSauls]

Maybe no ambiguity but there is interpretation. "Interfere" does not equal "Touch" as pointed out in post #2. Lots more likely to interfere with your hand trying to move a mini versus letting a disc roll over it. I can't imagine a competitor that would consider penalizing someone because a rollaway touched their marker. It's interesting to analyze this original question but does anyone really think this is how the rule was intended & should be applied? The Q&A does not address this under Interference or Equipment. I'd like to see the Rules Committee look at this.

I'm with you. To me, "interfere" implies a clear change in the path or resulting lie of the disc.

 

[Steve West]

What rule prevents you from making that request?

810.H explicitly allows it in some cases.
810.B says what to do if a marker disc has been moved.

I've also seen in practice where a player requests another player to mark their DROT prior to proceeding with their putt so as to avoid potential interference.

What about this scenario: I want to tombstone my spike hyzer in the mud right next to the basket, but another player's marker (whether thrown disc or mini) is right where I am aiming. I don't want my throw to skip off plastic to an OB area.

Under the current rules, can I ask the player to remove their marker?

Should the rules allow me to ask the player to remove their marker?

 

[roggenb3]

What about this scenario: I want to tombstone my spike hyzer in the mud right next to the basket, but another player's marker (whether thrown disc or mini) is right where I am aiming. I don't want my throw to skip off plastic to an OB area.

Under the current rules, can I ask the player to remove their marker?

Should the rules allow me to ask the player to remove their marker?

I don't know, and no.

But if someone asked me to move my marker, what do I replace it with in order to get my lie back to exactly where it was?

If that happened to me, I would probably just say no. And if they want to appeal to the TD that I should have been forced to move my mini, they can go ahead.

 

[teemkey]

What about this scenario: I want to tombstone my spike hyzer in the mud right next to the basket, but another player's marker (whether thrown disc or mini) is right where I am aiming. I don't want my throw to skip off plastic to an OB area.

Under the current rules, can I ask the player to remove their marker?

Should the rules allow me to ask the player to remove their marker?

What if I want to make a roller putt and ask you to use my specially designed (perfectly legal) marker because I've practiced with it.

 

[ru4por]

interfere: to interpose in a way that hinders or impedes : come into collision or be in opposition

I think touching something of yours, outside of the mini, is not enough to interfere with the throw.

 

[d11rok]

What about this scenario: I want to tombstone my spike hyzer in the mud right next to the basket, but another player's marker (whether thrown disc or mini) is right where I am aiming. I don't want my throw to skip off plastic to an OB area.

Under the current rules, can I ask the player to remove their marker?

Should the rules allow me to ask the player to remove their marker?

At some point, these very outlier "what ifs" take away from any semblance of logic when reading and applying rules

If someone was good enough to confidently tombstone at a spot by the basket the size of a disc or mini, why wouldn't they just throw it in the basket?

 

[JoakimBL]

No.That wouldn't be interference would it? If I throw at the basket, the basket doesn't "interfere" with my throw just because the disc hits it. If a player intentionally throws at anything and hits it, there is not interference by the object intentionally hit.

No because the basket is the target and part of the course. If you hit a tree, that tree didn't interfere either, because it is part of the course. Other players and their equipment isn't. And I'm allowed to throw the disc anywhere I want to. (though not at people or animals), so we would be back to arguing intent on the throwers part, which you cannot prove. Why should other players be penalized if my throw hits their (stationary) equipment, if I, as the thrower, didn't bother to ask them to move it? On the other hand, my equipment is my responsibility, and as the thrower, obviously it is also my responsibility to not hit my own equipment, as to not interfere with my disc.

 

[mosman253]

Marker disc is fine it should stay there incase you elect to re-putt.anything else should be moved. Imo

 

[araytx]

I don't see any wording that would exempt the marker. Also - as demonstrated in the video - it is possible to move it out of the way, and doing so does not violate any other rule.

I reject your CK-like extension of the treatment of other players' thrown discs to your own marker. Besides, the rules don't actually have special treatment for thrown discs in the equipment interference rules. Perhaps they should.

This new own-equipment rule was spawned from the expectation of a lot of pros. There was a phantom rule - which was widely, if not universally, enforced at the highest levels. That non-rule gave two penalty throws for allowing your thrown disc to hit your own equipment. The current rule was put in the rule book to kill the phantom rule. It specifically refers to a player's own equipment so that players who read the rule book know they have found the real rule, and don't assume the two-throw penalty rule is somewhere else in the book.

It seems the instinctive thing to do was to snatch the marker out of the way. Why write a rule that goes against that? Is it worth the extra words and complication to make an exception to allow something that a lot of players think should not be allowed?


Good question. It would seem adding "except discs in play" would be warranted.



The throwers marker is different than thrown discs. While the marker needs to be in place when the throw is made, as soon as the disc is released there is no requirement to leave it there. You don't get penalized for picking up your marker while the disc is still in flight.

So for now, getting your own marker out of the way is the way to go.

Now, to speculate about a better rule. If we make the exception for discs in play, it would make sense to also exempt a non-throwing player's marker from interfering with another player's throw. If we did that, it might make sense to also exempt the player's own marker.

I also agree that the rules should be written to give mini-markers special exemption from interference rules along with discs in play. I don't think they do as currently written.

But the bolded bits are not technically true, you are not REQUIRED to leave the mini in place after you have released your disc. Steve said it in #18, you can pick up your mini while the disc is in flight. For abandoned throws, you don't leave you mini on the ground, walk 250', check your new lie, and then walk back and get your mini. If you do abandon your throw, the groups agrees on the location of your previous lie. In the case of roll-away putts, that wouldn't be hard. And if anyone intends to call a stance violation they are required to do it promptly, and once it has been called, (deliberately) moving your mini to impede the process would be poor sportsmanship (cheating).

Leaving your marker in position can be beneficial at times, but the rules only REQUIRE the marker disc to be in position up to the point you have released your disc.

Minis, or markers ARE discs. They are explicitly named "mini marker discs" in 802.06B

 

[cheesethin]

Minis, or markers ARE discs. They are explicitly named "mini marker discs" in 802.06B

I'm being slow of brain here (it's late, I can't sleep), would you mind spelling out what the significance is here?

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