Jacob Courtis' form & Gossage's interesting comment on it

[disc-golf-neil]

At 23:40

Aaron Gossage is talking about how the tee pad is slippery and then makes an interesting comment about Jacob, "I have never seen someone's form like that, but the guy does not slip, he doesn't push off that front foot, he just rotates on it."

Unfortunately this specific shot somewhat blocks the feet but you can see better views elsewhere in the vid.

18:46 has a better view of the feet:


How true is Aaron's analysis? It seems hard to believe Jacob wouldn't tumble forward more after the brace if he wasn't pushing off it to stop the forward momentum (of course he must be a little bit). Is this mostly a case of vertical / horizontal bracing style? At first it looks like he's going into the brace fairly horizontally but looking more closely it does kind of seem the plant lands without a lot of horizontal force at the end.

There were also lots of commentary about his power / arm speed, being a shorter guy his power impressive (>700 ft Jerm says but idk which vid). It looks like a whippy reachback / pullthrough style so I'm curious to see what people here think about this form. I searched but it seemed like all old posts.

 

[Kennets]

Just watched it fast on my phone at work, so I can't see shit, but.

From my grainy view, he definitely braces, pushes back and clear the lead hip/buttwipe.

It does look like he's bringing some horizontal power into the brace too (along with a vertical drop). It's hard to tell, but to me, it looks like a pretty normal brace mechanic. His knee might not be fully extended as he enters the power pocket, but that isn't a must (I've heard).

I would say his form is pretty common along the pro's. But I would love to see what people with better eyes thinks about it!

He throws far and I believe Anthony barely got a YouTube video with him somewhere, where they throw for diatance.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Just watched it fast on my phone at work, so I can't see shit, but.

From my grainy view, he definitely braces, pushes back and clear the lead hip/buttwipe.

It does look like he's bringing some horizontal power into the brace too (along with a vertical drop). It's hard to tell, but to me, it looks like a pretty normal brace mechanic. His knee might not be fully extended as he enters the power pocket, but that isn't a must (I've heard).

I would say his form is pretty common along the pro's. But I would love to see what people with better eyes thinks about it!

He throws far and I believe Anthony barely got a YouTube video with him somewhere, where they throw for diatance.

Might just a bit commentary exaggeration / hype then.

Overall, Aaron on commentary was really nice, lot's of other good insights.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think Cupcake is just able to maintain balance better. His form reminds me a lot of Nikko, but more athletic and violent.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I think Cupcake is just able to maintain balance better. His form reminds me a lot of Nikko, but more athletic and violent.

So do you think it's something like: instead of needing to push off the brace more aggressively horizontally (increasing slip risk) to avoid falling over the brace, he has the balance to decelerate more gradually and come to a rest over the brace without falling over it?

 

[biscoe]

I think Cupcake is just able to maintain balance better. His form reminds me a lot of Nikko, but more athletic and violent.

That's not all that is reminiscent of Nikko.

 

[sidewinder22]

So do you think it's something like: instead of needing to push off the brace more aggressively horizontally (increasing slip risk) to avoid falling over the brace, he has the balance to decelerate more gradually and come to a rest over the brace without falling over it?

You have to brace against the swing like a hammer thrower. It's not just relative to the ground, it changes for different shots/trajectories. Throwing a different type of shot could be more prone to slipping like anhyzer vs hyzer.

Being better at balance could either be innate ability like inner ear stuff, or learned skill through practice, or physically stronger, or maybe all the above. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a skateboarder and good at it.

 

[BenjiHeywood]

Imagine we could separate the horizontal forces from the vertical ones. If you have a very horizontal brace, it's easy to imagine that it can overcome the friction between your shoe and the floor.

But the vertical forces push your foot hard into the ground, and increase the coefficient of friction.

So if someone has a more vertical brace, it's not just that they might have a lower horizontal speed (which means they maybe don't overcome the friction and slip) - it's also that they will have rather more friction to work with.

Presumably Jacob is nearer the vertical end of the spectrum than goose is used to seeing, and the double whammy of less horizontal speed and more friction makes it seem miraculous to goose.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Imagine we could separate the horizontal forces from the vertical ones. If you have a very horizontal brace, it's easy to imagine that it can overcome the friction between your shoe and the floor.

But the vertical forces push your foot hard into the ground, and increase the coefficient of friction.

So if someone has a more vertical brace, it's not just that they might have a lower horizontal speed (which means they maybe don't overcome the friction and slip) - it's also that they will have rather more friction to work with.

Presumably Jacob is nearer the vertical end of the spectrum than goose is used to seeing, and the double whammy of less horizontal speed and more friction makes it seem miraculous to goose.

That's exactly why I was speculating about if it was a horizontal vs vertical issue, it makes sense. It just didn't look obvious to my untrained eye.

 

[BenjiHeywood]

Doesn't look obvious to me either! Just guessing really.

 

[Mocheez]

That's not all that is reminiscent of Nikko.

Nikko has improved! He took 19 seconds to throw a circles edge putt on Hole 18 last weekend.

 

[Brychanus]

That's exactly why I was speculating about if it was a horizontal vs vertical issue, it makes sense. It just didn't look obvious to my untrained eye.

Doesn't look obvious to me either! Just guessing really.

One clue is often the absolute (or relative-to-height) distance the head drops (because it is attached to the body) during the transition from the drive leg.

Here's a fun round where you can see Redalen, Barela, Gibson, and Courtis. Watch their heads in transition.


Courtis does look like he's got a fairly significant vertical transition to me. Think about how it compares to others and what works the same vs. differently across players.

Sometimes you see it develop over time in a given player. Seems more often to be more vertical to horizontal than the other way around. Tend to see more vertical stick around in people with shorter levers.

Examples from Fundamentals p 36:

 

[Mocheez]

He keeps his front knee bent as he braces and clears. I think it's much easier on the knee vs. someone like Drew Gibson that rises up and straightens the front leg. Will Schusterick also keeps the front knee bent as he clears.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

One clue is often the absolute (or relative-to-height) distance the head drops (because it is attached to the body) during the transition from the drive leg.

Here's a fun round where you can see Redalen, Barela, Gibson, and Courtis. Watch their heads in transition.


Courtis does look like he's got a fairly significant vertical transition to me. Think about how it compares to others and what works the same vs. differently across players.

Sometimes you see it develop over time in a given player. Seems more often to be more vertical to horizontal than the other way around. Tend to see more vertical stick around in people with shorter levers.

Examples from Fundamentals p 36:
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Awesome, that's a great way to visualize it.

I'd seen this vertical to horizontal evolution mentioned somewhere on the forums here before but don't recall the reason it's common, is it just the natural consequence of becoming more efficient and smooth? I've always tried to not be very vertical and stompy because I was worried about it being worse for the knee.

Also, on a side note, what's the name of the 2nd to last guy again? I wanted to look up more of his form. I think it was him that I noticed in a slow motion drive I saw that on his right foot step before the X step, it looked a bit more open than usual, and while thinking about it, it seems like that could help reduce the X step from turning backwards because you are having to turn it more to get it backwards if the right foot is more open. So I wanted to see if it's a normal part of his form or was just that one clip I saw.

 

[Brychanus]

Awesome, that's a great way to visualize it.

I'd seen this vertical to horizontal evolution mentioned somewhere on the forums here before but don't recall the reason it's common, is it just the natural consequence of becoming more efficient and smooth? I've always tried to not be very vertical and stompy because I was worried about it being worse for the knee.

Also, on a side note, what's the name of the 2nd to last guy again? I wanted to look up more of his form. I think it was him that I noticed in a slow motion drive I saw that on his right foot step before the X step, it looked a bit more open than usual, and while thinking about it, it seems like that could help reduce the X step from turning backwards because you are having to turn it more to get it backwards if the right foot is more open. So I wanted to see if it's a normal part of his form or was just that one clip I saw.

Possible that it is a byproduct of becoming more efficient and smooth, also copycat-ism, using more horizontal for lower lines & control, people could speculate other reasons. In general pros seem to develop from more freewheeling to more controlled.

At this point I've seen countless examples of people who don't much explore the vertical space who clearly never figure out how to get gravity to help their move much. There are now a lot of "explosive" people like that who are maxing out what they get out of their body but not so much gravity, and I wonder how they will hold up into their 40s+.

2nd to last there is Redalen back when he was copycatting Drew. I've speculated elsewhere that Redalen has a couple minor inefficiencies in his action through the lower body, but the rest of what he is doing is so good w/ his trebuchet-like body that it doesn't matter too much. Might have something to do with some of his occasional inconsistency flareups, might be some of my BS.

If you are moving more vertical the leg action should become more similar to a vertical jump, just resisting & transmitting the force up the chain instead. It's quite safe if the rest of the move is intact. There, it's important to learn the difference between a stomp and a crush. Also here. Note that like everything in disc golf people still argue about this, but it's at least worth knowing about the fundamental argument. Interestingly and related to your Q about vertical-to-horizontal form changes, in pitching coaching there has been an increasing emphasis on stride length down the mound that some people are attributing the recent spike in MLB pitch speeds, and corresponding increases in leg/hip mobility and training. Explore. There are always tradeoffs you can consider.

Wiggins is a wild evolution because he has some of the largest exploration of the vertical/horizontal space we've seen, and combines it with one of the more "explosive" form styles but still preserves the gravity advantage. Cool stuff.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Possible that it is a byproduct of becoming more efficient and smooth, also copycat-ism, using more horizontal for lower lines & control, people could speculate other reasons. In general pros seem to develop from more freewheeling to more controlled.

At this point I've seen countless examples of people who don't much explore the vertical space who clearly never figure out how to get gravity to help their move much. There are now a lot of "explosive" people like that who are maxing out what they get out of their body but not so much gravity, and I wonder how they will hold up into their 40s+.

2nd to last there is Redalen back when he was copycatting Drew. I've speculated elsewhere that Redalen has a couple minor inefficiencies in his action through the lower body, but the rest of what he is doing is so good w/ his trebuchet-like body that it doesn't matter too much. Might have something to do with some of his occasional inconsistency flareups, might be some of my BS.

If you are moving more vertical the leg action should become more similar to a vertical jump, just resisting & transmitting the force up the chain instead. It's quite safe if the rest of the move is intact. There, it's important to learn the difference between a stomp and a crush. Also here. Note that like everything in disc golf people still argue about this, but it's at least worth knowing about the fundamental argument. Interestingly and related to your Q about vertical-to-horizontal form changes, in pitching coaching there has been an increasing emphasis on stride length down the mound that some people are attributing the recent spike in MLB pitch speeds, and corresponding increases in leg/hip mobility and training. Explore. There are always tradeoffs you can consider.

Wiggins is a wild evolution because he has some of the largest exploration of the vertical/horizontal space we've seen, and combines it with one of the more "explosive" form styles but still preserves the gravity advantage. Cool stuff.

Definitely cool stuff.

I was not using the term 'stomp' technically, I wasn't aware it had been used here technically I just assumed a vertical powerful plant would be produce a harder impact than horizontal style.

And 2nd to last isn't Cole on my screen (pictures). It's an EU guy with white sweatband on head.

 

[Brychanus]

Definitely cool stuff.

I was not using the term 'stomp' technically, I wasn't aware it had been used here technically I just assumed a vertical powerful plant would be produce a harder impact than horizontal style.

And 2nd to last isn't Cole on my screen (pictures). It's an EU guy with white sweatband on head.

Oh sorry, I had thought you meant the video! Albert Tamm if you meant 2nd to last in the ones I posted.

Another nugget: there is IMO an important difference in conceptualizing the plant as a move that gets the foot/leg as far out as possible in front of you and stopping momentum, vs a narrower move and emphasizing a change in direction. Probably room for variation in there and not a coincidence which bodies use one more than the other. I've entertained both and it was valuable learning in general as well as what my own body/brain were doing.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Oh sorry, I had thought you meant the video! Albert Tamm if you meant 2nd to last in the ones I posted.

Another nugget: there is IMO an important difference in conceptualizing the plant as a move that gets the foot/leg as far out as possible in front of you and stopping momentum, vs a narrower move and emphasizing a change in direction. Probably room for variation in there and not a coincidence which bodies use one more than the other. I've entertained both and it was valuable learning in general as well as what my own body/brain were doing.

What do you mean by "emphasizing a change in direction" since there's forward momentum in both that needs to be stopedp, is it the change from upward to downward movement?

On that side note I found that video now that I know his name:


Seeing that right foot just before the X looking a decent bit more open than 90 deg made me wonder if it could be a helpful cue to reduce an X step where the foot turns back too much since being more open there is like a buffer in the opposite direction. I developed closing to 90 on that right foot before the X because it made it easy to go into the brace on a straight line with the right foot just having to stay at 90 but this got me thinking because I sometimes turn the X a bit more than I'd like despite not coiling until coming out of the X.

 

[Brychanus]

1. What do you mean by "emphasizing a change in direction" since there's forward momentum in both that needs to be stopedp, is it the change from upward to downward movement?

On that side note I found that video now that I know his name:


2. Seeing that right foot just before the X looking a decent bit more open than 90 deg made me wonder if it could be a helpful cue to reduce an X step where the foot turns back too much since being more open there is like a buffer in the opposite direction. I developed closing to 90 on that right foot before the X because it made it easy to go into the brace on a straight line with the right foot just having to stay at 90 but this got me thinking because I sometimes turn the X a bit more than I'd like despite not coiling until coming out of the X.

1. "Emphasizing change in direction" just means that the brace and move function just like a running back, tennis player, golfer, changing the direction of momentum etc and there is no abrupt jamming as you load, unload, and pivot on the plant leg. You are redirecting momentum from the X-step up through the arm and into the disc. A lot of people have braces that are way too "jammy" and will damage their joints over time. If you move the upper body properly, it accounts for the rotation that occurs through the lower body. The lower body is doing whatever the best version of this is for your body:

2. Maybe/sometimes. Depends on where the rest is at. I'd caution that I've learned maybe every conceivable way to overthink the feet - I suggest you always really think of it as the same move as walking or running sideways, and you can make adjustments to fix parts. Running sideways down a football field was the biggest "oh duh" for me, then I still had a lot of work ahead of me. I still always get form input because it's easy to make mistakes that screw up either basic locomotion or other good mechanics.

This is exactly what your body should be doing. Watch how as he moves, his leading shoulder hangs a little lower than his rear shoulder like mounting a battering ram to swing*, and his leading shoulder swings back coiling him into the rear hip as his plant foot steps forward each time. There is no real "cheat code" for building muscle memory, especially for complex motions. That's actually good news that you just need to learn & do it hundreds and thousands of times. Get posture input.

I think once you get the gist of that move, a lot of the trouble starts for people when they keep counter-rotating back through the upper body (reachback/backswing) while striding farther forward into the plant, which is an unusual move for most people. It challenges their balance, mobility, stabilizing muscles, etc etc, especially if they try to develop an advanced move later in life.

*W.r.t. the shoulder I am aware there is varying advice on the exact posture & it does differ somewhat across top throwers. I stand by the drill advice in any case.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

1. "Emphasizing change in direction" just means that the brace and move function just like a running back, tennis player, golfer, changing the direction of momentum etc and there is no abrupt jamming as you load, unload, and pivot on the plant leg. You are redirecting momentum from the X-step up through the arm and into the disc. A lot of people have braces that are way too "jammy" and will damage their joints over time. If you move the upper body properly, it accounts for the rotation that occurs through the lower body. The lower body is doing whatever the best version of this is for your body:

2. Maybe/sometimes. Depends on where the rest is at. I'd caution that I've learned maybe every conceivable way to overthink the feet - I suggest you always really think of it as the same move as walking or running sideways, and you can make adjustments to fix parts. Running sideways down a football field was the biggest "oh duh" for me, then I still had a lot of work ahead of me. I still always get form input because it's easy to make mistakes that screw up either basic locomotion or other good mechanics.

This is exactly what your body should be doing. Watch how as he moves, his leading shoulder hangs a little lower than his rear shoulder like mounting a battering ram to swing*, and his leading shoulder swings back coiling him into the rear hip as his plant foot steps forward each time. There is no real "cheat code" for building muscle memory, especially for complex motions. That's actually good news that you just need to learn & do it hundreds and thousands of times. Get posture input.

I think once you get the gist of that move, a lot of the trouble starts for people when they keep counter-rotating back through the upper body (reachback/backswing) while striding farther forward into the plant, which is an unusual move for most people. It challenges their balance, mobility, stabilizing muscles, etc etc, especially if they try to develop an advanced move later in life.

*W.r.t. the shoulder I am aware there is varying advice on the exact posture & it does differ somewhat across top throwers. I stand by the drill advice in any case.

Ah, got it. I play pickleball and long ago racquetball so the lateral direction change is very familiar to me but I was thinking about the plant more as a horizontal stop, however, I wasn't trying to reach the plant out as far as I could since I wasn't failing to stop usually.

Do you prefer the emphasis on the direction change to the stop style? And which body types do you notice gravitate towards which style?