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Jacob Courtis' form & Gossage's interesting comment on it

Ah, got it. I play pickleball and long ago racquetball so the lateral direction change is very familiar to me but I was thinking about the plant more as a horizontal stop, however, I wasn't trying to reach the plant out as far as I could since I wasn't failing to stop usually.

Do you prefer the emphasis on the direction change to the stop style? And which body types do you notice gravitate towards which style?
Yeah, fish around in those prior/natural motions.

To your question:
I'm a dirty agnostic/filthy moderate. I think people will do whatever they want & time will tell. I'll give my current to your question because it's not just speculation IMO.

I personally think that there is a probably continuum of these concepts at work. Basically I would just recommend avoiding (and evidence favors me) any version of jamming, and for developing people always caution that some moves really do exceed most folks' athletic ability.

I think it's really not -or shouldn't be- controversial that the "best" move in terms of power and safety is a form of redirecting momentum just like every other sport that uses lateral movement and momentum. Gurthie and Wiggins are not jamming, but are both significantly more athletic in the "right" ways than almost everyone else. You see their momentum toward the target completely stop. The redirection I am talking about is the fact that the hip never really stops moving as they transfer power up the chain. They are both likely taking (briefly) somewhat over 1000lbs of force into that plant leg as they pull off the maneuver, which is one reason why someone like Sidewinder has a very 'slow and steady' philosophy for adult learners. I can assure you that you can destroy your knee and hip doing it wrong either acutely or chronically.
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Anecdotally, someone as top heavy, tall, less mobile, and short limbed as me it's probably not surprising that I get more power more easily and consistently with less injuries staying taller on flat ground no matter what else is going on. I can get more out of my body mass rotating (again, as a function of the right move, not the goal) more rapidly and more easily once I plant with less effort. My shoulders are also unusually wide so it's easier to find ways to get the full leverage out of them. I have always developed faster taking cues from people with bodies more like mine (esp. Jenkins, Sidewinder, Tattar, Gurthie).

It became easier to take more horizontal moves once I put significant offseason work into my weak legs because they would literally buckle against my significant upper body mass. But I still prefer to stay more tall and it hurts me less in general when I work on adding power. I don't think it's a coincidence that I develop faster using SW's cues than anyone else's because other than his higher "ape index" and my taller height and weaker legs, our bodies have a lot of similarities. A disadvantage to form working tall in that case may be that your posture might be more crowded for space to move, which is what I spend a lot of time on now.

In contrast, I'm now fairly convinced that the beanpoles can take a lot of horizontal momentum and get more horizontal extension and raw whipping force moving quicker with relatively less body mass. They get more leverage out of longer legs. They have less mass to move, so it's easier to be quick and have strong enough legs to deal with peak forces with less tax on their joints. They have less problems finding clearance for their "swull" exiting the reachback. I would also point out that if you account for the body type, they're really not striding as long into the plant as it first appears in general relative to their own body. If you've got short legs and ever walked next to someone with much longer legs than you, you know exactly what I mean. Some people like McBeth are an extreme and where he has both very long legs for his height and developed a very long plant stride when he started to maximize his form for horizontal power and control.

I should also mention that when I have a tee or lie on a decline, I have clearly gained advantages moving more horizontally and aggressively along the tee. It helped me understand what it should feel like even when moving on flat ground no matter how the form looks. It tends to take the plant leg out farther from my center to stop/redirect momentum. But I usually just think of that as a natural consequence of the slope and not falling down like a skiier slaloming. It's also kind of what pros are doing moving with postures that look like they are going "downhill" on flat ground or even on inclines. This clip of Eagle is my favorite example. When I have found ways to stray from this concept Sidewinder has always nudged me back, and it almost always works better.



I also received input from Chris Taylor and experimented with some of the horizontal and "pull" concepts which did influence me but I already wrote too much.

/pause Brychanusing
 

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I also received input from Chris Taylor and experimented with some of the horizontal and "pull" concepts which did influence me but I already wrote too much.
Have you written about this experimentation somewhere already? 2nd hand I've heard he emphasizes pull through / elbow drive and that's was a big influence behind overthrow's arm the disc vid.
 
Not that I recall


1st hand: yes and yes
Would like to hear about it sometime. And also more about Chris Taylor's approach. Seems like he just has stuff scattered around instagram and then the rest is just people who happen to know his method? I haven't done a deep dive on his instagram, I don't use it much so not sure but it would be cool if there was a thread here detailing more about his method and people's experiences with trying it, especially people like you who know a lot about form.
 
Would like to hear about it sometime. And also more about Chris Taylor's approach. Seems like he just has stuff scattered around instagram and then the rest is just people who happen to know his method? I haven't done a deep dive on his instagram, I don't use it much so not sure but it would be cool if there was a thread here detailing more about his method and people's experiences with trying it, especially people like you who know a lot about form.
Nice of you to say - I would say I understand one major model of form and maybe the only one I could integrate into a theory. I entertain learning about others since I'm apparently hard-coded to be curious.

I'm sure Chris may still lurk/could weigh in himself where I can't. Anything specific you want to know?
 
Nice of you to say - I would say I understand one major model of form and maybe the only one I could integrate into a theory. I entertain learning about others since I'm apparently hard-coded to be curious.

I'm sure Chris may still lurk/could weigh in himself where I can't. Anything specific you want to know?
More of a summary of his approach is what I'm looking for. I've only ever heard littles snippets like his emphasis on pulling / elbow drive but nothing more about other aspects or prominent ideas he emphasizes.
 
More of a summary of his approach is what I'm looking for. I've only ever heard littles snippets like his emphasis on pulling / elbow drive but nothing more about other aspects or prominent ideas he emphasizes.
From what I gather talking to Chris, he has a bit more classic take on form for some things, then a modern take on others, but I've not ever seen him really make a clean statement about form overall. It's more like small pieces he chimes in on here and there.
I've never got a clear picture of what he considers good form, or optimal form.
 
From what I gather talking to Chris, he has a bit more classic take on form for some things, then a modern take on others, but I've not ever seen him really make a clean statement about form overall. It's more like small pieces he chimes in on here and there.
I've never got a clear picture of what he considers good form, or optimal form.
I think he likes it that way. Keep it a shroud of mystery so no one can really question him.
 
I think he likes it that way. Keep it a shroud of mystery so no one can really question him.

Yes. Agreed. And not necessarily in a bad way, but based on some emails I had with him, when I got a bit more detailed on some stuff, he dropped out and didn't reply.
He likes short quick conversations where he can manage small puzzle pieces, not big picture stuff if that makes more sense.


I think he's trying to do good things with what personal time he has to devote to disc golf. But Chris is also the guy I'd never tell my idea's too, because he just seems like the guy who randomly will make a video or insta post about it claiming it as his idea. Which sucks, cause we have so much awesome talent out there to make even better stuff than we are currently making. We have knowledge and skills out there to research things deeper, and equipment and people who are passionate about all these things.
And... all of us have ego's about it.

There just is no funding/money in coaching.

Manufacturers are not looking to hire people like seabass, me, or brychanus to study form and help players prevent injury. But they will support the shit out of their own "pros" teaching bad technique that will get people hurt.
 
More of a summary of his approach is what I'm looking for. I've only ever heard littles snippets like his emphasis on pulling / elbow drive but nothing more about other aspects or prominent ideas he emphasizes.
If you have any real questions or need advice, please feel free to email me at coachchristaylor at gmail. I'd be glad to help.
 
But Chris is also the guy I'd never tell my idea's too, because he just seems like the guy who randomly will make a video or insta post about it claiming it as his idea.
That came out of nowhere. I thought we were about the communication of ideas/truth here. Not wanting to talk with him about your ideas because he "seems like the guy…[to steal them]" seems counter productive to the rest of what you wrote.
 
More of a summary of his approach is what I'm looking for. I've only ever heard littles snippets like his emphasis on pulling / elbow drive but nothing more about other aspects or prominent ideas he emphasizes.
I believe the basic ideas are extend the plant leg as far out in front of you as you can, STOP your momentum, and then throw hard/fast with the arm.

Other things that I've seen him talk about are: rear leg counterweights to delay opening and decelerate proximal parts, the first thing to move on distance throwers is the scapula retracts/horizonal abduction of the arm, and that focusing on lag (if there is any meaningful amount) is counter productive.

So I've gathered from his comments on disc golf form review and disc golf discussion on Facebook.
 
That came out of nowhere. I thought we were about the communication of ideas/truth here. Not wanting to talk with him about your ideas because he "seems like the guy…[to steal them]" seems counter productive to the rest of what you wrote.
There are quite a few video's online of youtube coaches teaching something I've shared with them privately, or in group chats where they are making money on it now, and I got 0 credit.

It's a bit of a silly nitpick, but it is something that did bother me internally for a while.

Now content creators are just throwing everything they can at the wall to be the "first" to do whatever it is anymore.

But I have projects I'd love to share and work with people on, but I have no support on my side.
So it's not hard for someone to just take your idea and use it.

Most of my other idea's i've been very vocal about for years now and nobody cares about them, so it's really whatever at this point.

I'm doing the stuff for me now. Not for others. So, I just truefully say how I feel. It might be wrong.
Don't care. Because. Well.
Nobody gives 2 shits about me, Why should I try and cater to anyone else?

I'm here to talk about things and learn and grow. I'm not going to get upset at someone saying I'm shitty about something, its probably true.
 
There are quite a few video's online of youtube coaches teaching something I've shared with them privately, or in group chats where they are making money on it now, and I got 0 credit.
Which would these be? There aren't very many people making money online from coaching as you said earlier so the list is pretty small it seems.
Most of my other idea's i've been very vocal about for years now and nobody cares about them, so it's really whatever at this point.
I'm new here and am willing to listen (I'm sure others are too), but you'll have to catch me up on what you've been shouting into the void.

Also, does being the first to say something in disc golf really matter? Aren't we just borrowing from other sports anyways?
 
Which would these be? There aren't very many people making money online from coaching as you said earlier so the list is pretty small it seems.

I'm new here and am willing to listen (I'm sure others are too), but you'll have to catch me up on what you've been shouting into the void.

Also, does being the first to say something in disc golf really matter? Aren't we just borrowing from other sports anyways?
If its a concept I pushed or taught someone, its a bit low to use that to promote yourself without credit.
However, that concept, regardless of who gets credit for it, is promoting better things. And that in the end is all that matters.

But it is annoying to watch people succeed on my information without the credit from it.
 
If its a concept I pushed or taught someone, its a bit low to use that to promote yourself without credit.
However, that concept, regardless of who gets credit for it, is promoting better things. And that in the end is all that matters.

But it is annoying to watch people succeed on my information without the credit from it.
Why wouldn't you just promote the idea yourself? You have a YouTube channel, right?
 
That came out of nowhere. I thought we were about the communication of ideas/truth here. Not wanting to talk with him about your ideas because he "seems like the guy…[to steal them]" seems counter productive to the rest of what you wrote.
I'm the last person to "steal" anything because IMO, disc form ideas are not mine to own, covet or steal. My interest in biomechanics has always been just no agenda? to try to find ways to help improve all players, not some secret recipe for me to "dish" out privately. I help all kids for free, and I'm available to help any coach who might seek my advice. No mystery, no subterfuge, just a positive, caring coach.
 
I'm the last person to "steal" anything because IMO, disc form ideas are not mine to own, covet or steal. My interest in biomechanics has always been just no agenda? to try to find ways to help improve all players, not some secret recipe for me to "dish" out privately. I help all kids for free, and I'm available to help any coach who might seek my advice. No mystery, no subterfuge, just a positive, caring coach.
I see that. I'm not one to let someone assume false motives of another person without being called out for it. Seems like he may have been burned by someone else in the past and put you in the same boat.

Sheep has stated he wants to attack ideas and he let the personal attack slip in.

I'm sure he will appreciate the bluntness of being called out for it as that is his modus oporandi.
 

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