Lacey Brugler Suspension

[Lazerface]

Most top events it isn't the policy any longer, as others have pointed out regarding live scoring becoming more ubiquitous.

At other events (B tier and below, typically), the biggest reason there is often just one scorecard per group is a cost-saving measure. 36 scorecards for a 2-round, one course tournament is easier than 72 or 90 (X 2 if using fresh cards each round).

Between phone apps and eraseable/re-useable scorecards becoming more common, it is really simple for any player to keep score for themselves or their whole group in addition to the official scorecard(s). It's a good practice for every player to get into, not just for purposes of preventing cheating, but also it can be good just to have a personal record of one's rounds.

Even beyond that, the easiest way to prevent shenanigans with the scorecard after it has been counted and verified by the group is for the whole group to turn it in together. Not just to prevent any one from pencil whipping, but also to make sure no one walks off with it accidentally and forgets to turn it in...something that, in my experience, is more common than pencil whipping.

To add to that, I think myself and many other players know exactly what my card mates are scoring throughout the round and where we all stand at the end. I totally understand the mentality of not "playing your own game" and not paying attention to scores, but as crazy as it sounds I feel like I can go through a full round of 4 players in my head and reply everyone's round hole by hole and if at the end the final score did not add up to what was in my head I could go through the card and find the culprit. I'm no savant and feel like there are many players like me.

 

[brutalbrutus]

To add to that, I think myself and many other players know exactly what my card mates are scoring throughout the round and where we all stand at the end. I totally understand the mentality of not "playing your own game" and not paying attention to scores, but as crazy as it sounds I feel like I can go through a full round of 4 players in my head and reply everyone's round hole by hole and if at the end the final score did not add up to what was in my head I could go through the card and find the culprit. I'm no savant and feel like there are many players like me.

I'm pretty much the same way. I can remember both my rounds shot by shot, usually for a couple weeks or more. For the other guys, on a long tough course, I might have to think about it for a few minutes.

 

[TimSyl]

I keep my own score card as a matter of course, and I find it interesting how people react to this habit. Some people find it interesting and clever, and wonder if they should try doing it too, other people are completely indifferent to the practice because it affects them not bit. A third portion are openly hostile to the practice. This third group are the ones I watch closely.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Reniger]

Meh. What do you expect from Ohio? ;D

 

[DiscFifty]

No one asks about this quote from the article?

"Leonard estimated that "easily 75 to 90 percent" of players disciplined by the seven-member committee are disciplined not for behavioral infractions, but for financial issues related to tournament rules."

Really???? Huh????

 

[JC17393]

No one asks about this quote from the article?

"Leonard estimated that "easily 75 to 90 percent" of players disciplined by the seven-member committee are disciplined not for behavioral infractions, but for financial issues related to tournament rules."

Really???? Huh????

Yes, really. Most of the people on the suspended list are TDs that ran sanctioned tournaments and didn't pay the player ($2 for C-tier, $3 for B-tier, etc) and non-member fees to the PDGA after the event.

 

[_MTL_]

JC is correct.

The reason this was brought up was the reporter asked me "so I am looking at your discipline list and I see that you have about 100 people suspended. Is there a behavior, drug issue or anything like that would cause such a large list?"

This was 100% a valid question.

Instead of the article talking about the PDGA having people who can't follow the rules or abuse drugs or whatever could be assumed, I directly let her know that most discipline is financially related.

I explained all the benefits of sanctioning a PDGA event and stated with that is a fee. TD's sign contracts and agree to pay and if they breach that contract, they are subject to discipline. That's where she got "tournament rules"

It was a really awkward spot to be put in and I don't blame her for asking the question, especially as she was looking into an alleged rule violation from Lacey.

 

[Dingus]

I believe Timmy Gill got a PDGA suspension for tournament money issues which lead to the ultimate death of the best disc golf league ever maintained. I could be wrong though.

 

[dashiellx]

I believe Timmy Gill got a PDGA suspension for tournament money issues which lead to the ultimate death of the best disc golf league ever maintained. I could be wrong though.

Well, if he couldn't pay the PDGA fees, etc... then the league wasn't well maintained. (I know nothing of what you are talking about, but a well maintained league would pay its bills on time.)

 

[Dingus]

Well, if he couldn't pay the PDGA fees, etc... then the league wasn't well maintained. (I know nothing of what you are talking about, but a well maintained league would pay its bills on time.)

I don't think Sundog was a PDGA league, and I'm pretty sure it dissolved before the PDGA even sanctioned leagues...

At any rate I'm sure the suspension had nothing to do with that league specifically.

 

[ChrisWoj]

I swear, parents of child athletes can be just awful. They're depressed with the way their life turned out, so they have grand dreams of their children becoming professional sports stars so they can live vicariously through them. Then, they do stupid **** like this.

Also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1GDLNZIPx8

I swear, PEOPLE can be just awful is a better way of putting it... Why specify parents of athletes, when the real thing is... some PEOPLE just plain suck.

Not going after you or your sentiment - I agree with your statements. Just a peave about attacking a subset of the population versus acknowledging that people suck in pretty equal numbers across demographics.

 

[ChrisWoj]

My post that you responded to literally states what I as a player would gain if the PDGA confirmed suspensions for cheating.

"It would be nice if the PDGA let their own members know if someone was suspended for cheating. It would at least give you an opportunity to keep an eye out if you're ever on a card with that person in the future..."

I'm not a female, so in this case I would gain nothing. However, I'm sure Lacey's competitors will be wary when playing on a card with her now. They gain the knowledge that they should watch out for a known cheater.

With the PDGA's secrecy, it almost seems like they're invested in protecting known cheaters.

Which is why he pointed out all of those other sources of that information. There's been pretty much no doubt from moment one regarding what Lacey's violation was. The PDGA did not need to release that information for it to become widespread and known. That's why he said he didn't understand what you'd gain from it - because the grapevine handles making all of that more public than the PDGA's published list would on its own with the violation listed anyway.

Now - considering the possible concerns of the grapevine being accurate: I can appreciate if you have those. But right now it seems the circumstances tend to come out in the open.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

There is only one scorecard per card at MOST tournaments.

This is a HUGE problem for disc golf. I have seen numerous instances of cheating both intentionally and accidentally in the small sample of events I have played.. Both types can be cured by having multiple scorecards. Decent ball golf events have a separate card for each player which another player is responsible for scoring. They also have a separate ripoff portion for a player to record their own scores to compare to official card at end of round. And then you sign to attest the score is correct. The PDGA needs to start getting serious about bringing integrity into scoring.

If you don't want to keep a scorecard then don't play in tournaments. It's not a hard solution.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

I swear, PEOPLE can be just awful is a better way of putting it... Why specify parents of athletes, when the real thing is... some PEOPLE just plain suck.

Not going after you or your sentiment - I agree with your statements. Just a peave about attacking a subset of the population versus acknowledging that people suck in pretty equal numbers across demographics.

Totally agree. The people that cheat in my area are all full grown adults. There is one i drill every time we play together (often) that is eligible for social security. Good news is that he is coming around and playing better because of it.

 

[JC17393]

This is a HUGE problem for disc golf. I have seen numerous instances of cheating both intentionally and accidentally in the small sample of events I have played.. Both types can be cured by having multiple scorecards. Decent ball golf events have a separate card for each player which another player is responsible for scoring. They also have a separate ripoff portion for a player to record their own scores to compare to official card at end of round. And then you sign to attest the score is correct. The PDGA needs to start getting serious about bringing integrity into scoring.

If you don't want to keep a scorecard then don't play in tournaments. It's not a hard solution.

How does one "accidentally" cheat? By its very definition, cheating requires intent.

Also curious how you know that numerous instances of cheating has occurred in the small sample of events you've played? Because they were caught? If they were caught, then what's the issue? What would having multiple cards change?

Not that I think having multiple cards in a group is necessarily a bad idea, I just don't think it's something that needs to be required. Plenty of tournaments are run on a shoe-string budget and printing 40 cards (18 groups x 2 rounds plus a few extra) for a one-day C-tier is easier and cheaper than printing 150 cards (72 players x 2 rounds plus a few extra).

Perhaps as electronic scorekeeping becomes more ubiquitous, a single paper scorecard plus 2-3 phones in the group will be more than enough to keep everyone honest and accurate.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

How does one "accidentally" cheat? By its very definition, cheating requires intent.

Also curious how you know that numerous instances of cheating has occurred in the small sample of events you've played? Because they were caught? If they were caught, then what's the issue? What would having multiple cards change?

Not that I think having multiple cards in a group is necessarily a bad idea, I just don't think it's something that needs to be required. Plenty of tournaments are run on a shoe-string budget and printing 40 cards (18 groups x 2 rounds plus a few extra) for a one-day C-tier is easier and cheaper than printing 150 cards (72 players x 2 rounds plus a few extra).

Perhaps as electronic scorekeeping becomes more ubiquitous, a single paper scorecard plus 2-3 phones in the group will be more than enough to keep everyone honest and accurate.

Because I have seen it and taken action about it when i could. Many times such things are not provable after the fact and you have to let it go. Force everyone to be part of the score keeping process on every hole and folks will pay better attention so it is not just one voice vs. another.

As for electronic scoring...no thanks. I don't and won't carry a phone on the course. i break and lose them enough as it is. Disc golf is one of the few activities where i can break away from the digital world and I am not willing to give that freedom up. If the powers to be force it onto the sport it will be a big mistake.

 

[filobedo]

Nice parenting. I have played golf since I was six years old and played tournaments starting at 9 years old. We were constantly reminded about etiquette, the consequences of cheating and of Bobby Jones calling a penalty on himself. By the time I started playing high school golf we all worked each other (e.g., shadows on pins and greens, etc.) but I never played with or against anyone that ever pencil whipped because of how we were taught the game and traditions. If she was also making side bets, her parents need to start peeling some paper off to her competitors immediately.

 

[McCready]

Even her website is a lie. 2x world champ?? Umm, I think the word "junior" might be a critical distinction. Suspend her again imo.

http://laceybrugler.com/

 

[davetherocketguy]

Even her website is a lie. 2x world champ?? Umm, I think the word "junior" might be a critical distinction. Suspend her again imo.

http://laceybrugler.com/

Her membership has expired FYI.

 

[Hampstead]

I wouldn't be surprised if she stopped playing.