Ledgestone 2017

[lyleoross]

No, I say both. I clarified what I meant with "fluky". Two nearly identical shots, indistinguishable to the human eye, where one stays in and one spits through isn't random/fluky in a literal sense, but it will always feel as such because we could never understand what parameter, which was x-number of degrees off, caused the disc to spit through rather than stick. Nothing is truly random, yet "randomness" does exist as a human perception. The target area (not the entire chain assembly, but dead center) shouldn't allow a disc to slip through when it "randomly" gets turned sideways.

Indistinguishable to the human eye doesn't mean a thing. Are you telling me that you can perceive differences in velocity of five miles an hour? Differences in position of two inches? It is simply impossible to make such comparisons based on human abilities.

Only in our sport would we look at a basketball bouncing off a rim and call it fluky cause the shot before, which looked exactly the same, went in. Now where is that eye roll emoticon?

You called it yourself. It's perception. Ten years of commentators calling baskets fluky has led to a perception that doesn't exist. But you still miss the point. If every course goes to Mach X baskets, instead of bounce outs of one type, you'll have bounce outs of another type and skip outs. Fluky will have a whole new meaning. Sigh.

 

[lyleoross]

No...I didn't...I gave my experience based on a product that I've sold, installed, and stand behind. There's many different types of turf.

Let's not create drama where there is none. I was having an insightful discussion.





Correct, we use sand. If I'm not mistaken, that crushed rubber was used in NFL stadiums because if they used finer grain filler (like sand), players would get it into their eyes, nose, mouth, etc. due to the violent nature of being tackled.

Also those types of synthetic infill are much more expensive and harder to source. The goal with DiscGolfPark is to add minimal work/maintenance while maximizing the benefit of the equipment.

So now that I have your leg, do you want it back? That said, what is being said is that artificial turf lasts as long as cement. Bull Pucky. At no point have I said don't do it. I've said be adult and understand the added cost. How unrealistic of me.

 

[biscoe]

If you think of each target as having some sort of "good putt zone" no matter how that zone is shaped on the target I think most people would agree that discs striking near the center of that zone should be caught. The tendency of the Mach baskets other than Mach X to turn the disc upright and have it pass all the way through even though the disc struck near the center of the "good putt zone" is what makes them an inferior target. Bounce outs/rejects/skip outs on the newer targets all occur on the periphery of the "good putt zone"- not right in the middle of it.

 

[biscoe]

what is being said is that artificial turf lasts as long as cement.

No one has said that at any point. What several people have said is turf is better than cement.

 

[davetherocketguy]

I have read most of this thread. If this has already been mentioned then I missed it.

The goal in disc golf is to get a disc to "come to rest in the basket". The chains and pole are there to make this easier. This design is a tremendous scoring aid, helping a vast majority of putted discs to "come to rest in the basket". Perhaps disc golfers should appreciate this reality because in no other sport that I can think of are the scoring areas designed to aid a player in scoring. In soccer, there's the net, kick it in. There's no intricate deflection device setup to help a ball get into the net. Same with the goalposts in football, the cup in ball golf and so on. In basketball there's a backboard but that's a lot simpler and more predictable than the suspended chains and pole of a target.

I say remove the chains and center pole. Then it's up to the disc golfer, not the chains and pole, to get the disc to "come to rest in the basket".

Yes, putting would be harder and it should be. "Deuce or die" holes would be largely eliminated and they should be. Aces would be much less frequent and they should be. In ball golf an ace is almost always a perfect shot but in disc golf an ace is almost always an imperfect shot that would not be very close to the basket were it not for the chains and pole.

Elimination of chain and pole would make targets a lot cheaper and current courses could be changed pretty easily. New targets could have colored bands around the basket with a number on them.

One disadvantage...You'd see even more people trying to use DG baskets as grills. :doh:

 

[araytx]

Discgolfpark tees only need to be resanded once per year IIRC, and that's pretty much all there is to them. They might not be ideal for a nine hole project that's just going to be an afterthought for a county, but for any course that has even half a club attached to it, that should be handled well enough.

Of course, this being the real world it'll get done by the same four people every year more or less.....

Respectfully, I disagree. I've heard this argument before, but the truth is if you build them correctly, maintenance is quite easy and minimal. I can't speak to all turf solutions that exist out there, but this is true for DiscGolfPark at least.

Our TeePads require infill, so all you need to do is brush additional sand in occasionally, or when you see it getting bare. It's minimal maintenance, and the turf survives winters covered in ice (Finland), or being flooded (Louisiana) with no problem.

I think use of turf that doesn't require infill has the issues you're describing, because while it seems logical that infill-less turf is less work, it actually wears much quicker. What the sand infill does for ours is allows the player to rotate their heel or toe on the sand itself, not on top of the blades of turf, so as long as that infill is present it keeps the friction consistent and doesn't wear the mat out as quickly.

Where the workload is more difficult than concrete is during the installation. Properly installed TeePads take more time and careful attention to get right. No arguments from me there...concrete is easier and quicker to install.

I hear all of that, and I'll take you guys at your word. But there is a difference (HUGE!!!) between "little maintenance" and no maintenance. Anyone can do "no maintenance". Someone has to do "little maintenance" and on a regular schedule. I'm curious to see if nay course has had permanently installed turf and for more than 5 years. And I'd like to hear about their upkeep schedule.

 

[F. Howl]

Indistinguishable to the human eye doesn't mean a thing. Are you telling me that you can perceive differences in velocity of five miles an hour? Differences in position of two inches? It is simply impossible to make such comparisons based on human abilities...

Yes it does. No, and no...that's my point. And that's what I said.

.......But you still miss the point. If every course goes to Mach X baskets, instead of bounce outs of one type, you'll have bounce outs of another type and skip outs. Fluky will have a whole new meaning. Sigh.

I did get your point, and am refuting it. The reason for spit outs on interwoven chains are easier to determine: Soft high center, or left/right of center. Those aren't as fluky as a disc hitting dead center, turning up on its side and sliding right through, or a bounce out dead center because a putt was going a tick faster than human abilities could consistently regulate. A putting machine set to whatever the approved velocity you seem to think should be the only putting speed, aimed at the target area of a conventional chain assembly will find multiple ways to spit out as you go through all the iterations adjusted for disc angle, angle of entry, amount of spin, etc. That machine will also find ways to spit on an interwoven assembly, but never by sliding through the determined target area.

Tell me it's physics, that I missed your point, or just type an exasperated "sigh", but there has been enough talk about it amongst the pros at Ledgestone and on social media, to influence Discraft to improve the design. (Probably won't be interwoven, but hopefully sport chains as hefty as my favorite of the classic chain assemblies, the Black Hole Portal.)

 

[araytx]

Dice rolling isn't fluky, it's mechanics: We just don't know the velocity, angle, etc. needed to obtain a certain result and even if we did, humans are too sloppy to control said parameters.

Of course there are many ways to get a disc to stay in a basket, and a certain variation of putt that has the largest margin of "error". The problem is that within that ideal target area there are ways a nearly identical putt can turn sideways and slide through the other side or hit the pole and bounce out, and it would be impossible for any human to understand the exact parameters that differentiate the perfect putt and that apparently near perfect putt that spit through, and that, as I said, "feels" fluky. I'm not advocating to make the game easier. Just to feel less....like this:

https://youtu.be/xXiHDORLjq0?t=7m56s

And it's not just Chainstars:

https://youtu.be/Ur_3_1Md8rg?t=6m51s
https://youtu.be/0gxm_1riKnk
https://youtu.be/VTD8iVOkJpI?t=17m15s


At any rate, in response, Discraft has said it would release a championship level basket in time for next year.

Two of those "spits" were not dead center pole. And maybe that is where my argument about disc catching quality and other people's perception is different. Paul's miss and Eagle's miss had no piece of the pole, and I contend that when your putt isn't catching center pole, the fact that it stays in is the luck. We need to devise a target that doesn't kick out the one hitting the middle. The putts being kicked out in Barsby's, Ricky's, Nikko's, and others, and were DEAD CENTER -- and not flying hard at a million miles per hour. That, to me is a problem. Those people arguing about hard shots of the backboard in basketball are using the wrong analogy to make their point. A basketball shot, no matter how hard, whether it has good spin, bad spin,or no spin IF IT IS DEAD CENTER HOOP goes in the nets and doesn't come out -- EVER! It's nothing but net, no rim, nothing but in. That's the point I want those to argue, and our target SHOULD be the same.

I have read most of this thread. If this has already been mentioned then I missed it.

The goal in disc golf is to get a disc to "come to rest in the basket". The chains and pole are there to make this easier. This design is a tremendous scoring aid, helping a vast majority of putted discs to "come to rest in the basket". Perhaps disc golfers should appreciate this reality because in no other sport that I can think of are the scoring areas designed to aid a player in scoring. In soccer, there's the net, kick it in. There's no intricate deflection device setup to help a ball get into the net. Same with the goalposts in football, the cup in ball golf and so on. In basketball there's a backboard but that's a lot simpler and more predictable than the suspended chains and pole of a target.

I say remove the chains and center pole. Then it's up to the disc golfer, not the chains and pole, to get the disc to "come to rest in the basket".


Yes, putting would be harder and it should be. "Deuce or die" holes would be largely eliminated and they should be. Aces would be much less frequent and they should be. In ball golf an ace is almost always a perfect shot but in disc golf an ace is almost always an imperfect shot that would not be very close to the basket were it not for the chains and pole.

Elimination of chain and pole would make targets a lot cheaper and current courses could be changed pretty easily. New targets could have colored bands around the basket with a number on them.

First what you say about the no pole & no chain targets is probably accurate as you state, especially if the bottom of the basket were netting like basketball. However, consider this. I applaud what Steady Ed was trying to design and how he help basically create and develop our sport. Since then there have been improvements by many other people -- advancements in course design, in basket quality, in disc technology, etc. Advancements are awesome. So while I agree with the point you are making, I think such a change would fundamentally change the sport. It's akin to what was done with Super Class in disc golf. They thought it would be a "different kind of disc golf," but it ended up being a different sport altogether.

I personally believe that we can make chain & pole targets that WON'T spit out (our bounce out) of dead center -- if we consider different materials and/or sizes -- and KEEP the current basic design.

No one has said that at any point. What several people have said is turf is better than cement.

True. You are correct technically. However, he was trying to make a different assertion to someone who had already disagreed with my original point about turf not handling weather as well as concrete.

So, yes, Lyle was properly interpreting JTacoma.'s position.

 

[Steve West]

I think those Tournament Prediction threads are missing an opportunity. We need to start a pool for "Which topic will the last few survivors on a tournament-specific thread end up fighting over?"

 

[lyleoross]

Yes it does. No, and no...that's my point. And that's what I said.



I did get your point, and am refuting it. The reason for spit outs on interwoven chains are easier to determine: Soft high center, or left/right of center. Those aren't as fluky as a disc hitting dead center, turning up on its side and sliding right through, or a bounce out dead center because a putt was going a tick faster than human abilities could consistently regulate. A putting machine set to whatever the approved velocity you seem to think should be the only putting speed, aimed at the target area of a conventional chain assembly will find multiple ways to spit out as you go through all the iterations adjusted for disc angle, angle of entry, amount of spin, etc. That machine will also find ways to spit on an interwoven assembly, but never by sliding through the determined target area.

Tell me it's physics, that I missed your point, or just type an exasperated "sigh", but there has been enough talk about it amongst the pros at Ledgestone and on social media, to influence Discraft to improve the design. (Probably won't be interwoven, but hopefully sport chains as hefty as my favorite of the classic chain assemblies, the Black Hole Portal.)

Last comment, go watch the 2016 Memorial. Pros commented on the Mach Xs and their issues.

I think you are only listening to the comments that fit your agenda. Each basket has problems. One from too light of chains, the other from trying to solve the problem.

 

[lyleoross]

I think those Tournament Prediction threads are missing an opportunity. We need to start a pool for "Which topic will the last few survivors on a tournament-specific thread end up fighting over?"

Okay, that was snark. Damned good snark, but still.

 

[biscoe]

I hear all of that, and I'll take you guys at your word. But there is a difference (HUGE!!!) between "little maintenance" and no maintenance. Anyone can do "no maintenance". Someone has to do "little maintenance" and on a regular schedule. I'm curious to see if nay course has had permanently installed turf and for more than 5 years. And I'd like to hear about their upkeep schedule.

Walnut Creek Park in Albemarle County, VA is on their 6th year with the shorter "no fill" turf- no maintenance and no issues to this point.

I have 2 longer turf with sand for fill tees at Hawk Hollow that have been in the ground for roughly 10 years. no maintenance and no problems. (unless you consider cattle walking all over them to be maintenance) Admittedly Hawk Hollow gets minimal play.

 

[F. Howl]

Last comment, go watch the 2016 Memorial. Pros commented on the Mach Xs and their issues.

I think you are only listening to the comments that fit your agenda. Each basket has problems. One from too light of chains, the other from trying to solve the problem.

Previous was gonna be my last comment, but you're calling me out. Already watched it and listened to the comments. Stiff chains push out more putts that might have stuck on lighter ones. We're used to having discs get caught left or right of center on Discatchers, for example, Pro or Am side. Those putts shouldn't be sticking in the first place. X's shrink the target space, and the target space is more reliable.

 

[pauldst]

From the European Open, I know, but saw McBeth's putt here on an Innova basket (I marked the starting time at an awesome Barsby putt). I don't know which basket, but problems with putts come on different baskets, different makes, different places...

 

[roggenb3]

I think those Tournament Prediction threads are missing an opportunity. We need to start a pool for "Which topic will the last few survivors on a tournament-specific thread end up fighting over?"

(a) Targets
(b) The course (especially OB)
(c) Some pro's personal life
(d) Par
(e) Trump