Legality of a slap putt

[robdeforge]

Apologies for the music, my recommendations are just to mute the video: https://v.redd.it/o1fq601khxh61

In the last putt of this short video the player tosses a putter straight up in the air and then hits/slaps it towards the basket (and in). Has the throw begun when the player tosses up the disc, or does the throw begin with the slap?

relevant rule sections I have looked at in trying to figure this out:
802.01 Throw -
A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position. Each throw that is made as a competitive attempt to change the lie is counted.

...

QA-THR-1: My throwing hand bumped a tree branch during my backswing, knocking the disc to the ground, and the disc rolled forward of my lie. Was that a throw?
No. A throw begins when the disc is moving forward in the intended direction. A disc dropped or knocked out before or during a backswing does not count as a throw.

...

QA-THR-2: Are there any restrictions on how you throw the disc? For example, can you throw nothing but overhand shots?
There are no restrictions on how you throw the disc. You may throw backhand, sidearm, overhand, thumber, or any other way that occurs to you. You can throw it with your foot if you want.

...

A player who intentionally interferes with a disc in any of the following ways receives two penalty throws:
Altering the course of a thrown disc (other than to prevent injury

 

[Jay Dub]

Why would anyone putt that way in competition?

Of course that's illegal.

 

[BillFleming]

It would be illegal based on 810.D Interference:

A thrown disc whose course was intentionally altered is given a position at the point of contact, as agreed on by the group. The thrower may choose to play from the resulting lie, or to abandon the throw without penalty.

In your example, the disc was thrown upwards, then the player "intentionally altered" the course of the disc. So, the disc would be placed where the slap occurred, and the "pre-slap" throw would count.

 

[robdeforge]

Of course that's illegal.

Why?

 

[Jay Dub]

Does this really need to be discussed?

 

[Jay Dub]

Why would anyone putt that way in competition?

Of course that's illegal.

Why?

Answer that question first, please.

IMO this question shouldn't even need to be asked.

 

[robdeforge]

Answer that question first, please.

to close out the tournament in an interesting way, similar to how Eagle finished out the LVC

 

[robdeforge]

It would be illegal based on 810.D Interference:


In your example, the disc was thrown upwards, then the player "intentionally altered" the course of the disc. So, the disc would be placed where the slap occurred, and the "pre-slap" throw would count.

What specifically says in the rules that the toss up is the beginning of the throw? at that point it's not moving forward in the intended direction, and it's not yet a competitive attempt to change the lie. or am I totally misunderstanding something like an order of operations here?

A throw begins when the disc is moving forward in the intended direction.

Each throw that is made as a competitive attempt to change the lie is counted.

NOTE I am *not* trying to argue that it is or is not legal, just trying to figure out what I'm not grasping

 

[Horsman]

Terry Miller has said that it used to be a tradition for him at Worlds I think that he used to headbutt a putt into the basket. It was just his thing

 

[Jay Dub]

NOTE I am *not* trying to argue that it is or is not legal, just trying to figure out what I'm not grasping

The title of the thread is what threw me off...

 

[Cgkdisc]

I'm not sure what rule specifically makes this illegal? The key question is whether tossing the disc up in place qualifies as a "throw" per the definition? If not, then it's just an elaborate pre-throw maneuver similar to how Nate Sexton flips the disc around a few times in his hands while pondering his shot before throwing. Let's say he flips the disc and there's briefly no contact before he grabs and throws it. Does the time the disc is flipping without contact constitute a throw? In earlier rules, tossing or fiddling with the disc was called "padiddling" and could receive a courtesy warning. That's not in the Courtesy section of the current rules.

 

[Steve West]

...
In earlier rules, tossing or fiddling with the disc was called "padiddling" and could receive a courtesy warning. That's not in the Courtesy section of the current rules.

Before 2013 "freestyling" was explicitly listed as a "distracting action" which players should not do while other players are throwing. Now, the rule is:

812 Courtesy
A. A player must not:
...
3. Engage in distracting or unsportsmanlike actions such as:
...
d. Moving or talking while another player is throwing, ...

The slap putt would not be a courtesy violation under either the old rule or the current rule (unless it was done while another player was throwing).

 

[Cgkdisc]

The slap putt would not be a courtesy violation under either the old rule or the current rule (unless it was done while another player was throwing).

1.0 COURTESY (1982 rule book)
3. Freestyling, paddidling, etc. will not be allowed any place on the course during play by any player. A warning may be given for violating this rule by any affected player, even if from another group, or an official, with all members of the group advised of the warning. A one-throw penalty will be assessed for all subsequent occurrences in the same round by any two members of the foursome or by a PDGA official.

 

[BillFleming]

What specifically says in the rules that the toss up is the beginning of the throw? at that point it's not moving forward in the intended direction, and it's not yet a competitive attempt to change the lie. or am I totally misunderstanding something like an order of operations here?

NOTE I am *not* trying to argue that it is or is not legal, just trying to figure out what I'm not grasping

Here's the way I understand it....again, I'm a Certified Official, but that doesn't mean I'm a Rules Expert by any means...

Rule 802.01.a Throw
[QUOTE}
A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position. Each throw that is made as a competitive attempt to change the lie is counted.
[/QUOTE]

The upwards "propulsion and release of a disc" constituted a throw as it was done to change its position. While the change of position was done to position the disc for the slap, it was still a change of position.

 

[araytx]

Here's the way I understand it....again, I'm a Certified Official, but that doesn't mean I'm a Rules Expert by any means...

Rule 802.01.a Throw
[QUOTE}
A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position. Each throw that is made as a competitive attempt to change the lie is counted.

The upwards "propulsion and release of a disc" constituted a throw as it was done to change its position. While the change of position was done to position the disc for the slap, it was still a change of position.[/QUOTE]

"position" is not the common definition. It has a legal definition under the rules. 805.01

 

[Cgkdisc]

If this is allowed, I can foresee freestyle doubles where Partner A tosses up the disc behind the marker and Partner B has to grab it in mid-air and throw.

 

[BillFleming]

The upwards "propulsion and release of a disc" constituted a throw as it was done to change its position. While the change of position was done to position the disc for the slap, it was still a change of position.

"position" is not the common definition. It has a legal definition under the rules. 805.01[/QUOTE]

(An aside...man I sure do mess up those square brackets on the quotes sometimes)

805.01.a says:

A thrown disc establishes a position where it first comes to rest.

So the disc came to rest (805.01.a). Then it was tossed/thrown upwards to change its position (802.01.a). Then it was interfered (810.d) with (slapped).

It seemed the original question was asking if the "upwards toss" was a throw. It was. Then the "slap" became interference.

Result: the disc gets positioned at the point of contact, which would pretty much be where it was before since it was tossed straight up or the player can abandon the throw and throw from the previous lie (again, the same spot).

 

[robdeforge]

It seemed the original question was asking if the "upwards toss" was a throw. It was. Then the "slap" became interference.

what about:

A throw begins when the disc is moving forward in the intended direction.

and:

I'm not sure what rule specifically makes this illegal? The key question is whether tossing the disc up in place qualifies as a "throw" per the definition? If not, then it's just an elaborate pre-throw maneuver similar to how Nate Sexton flips the disc around a few times in his hands while pondering his shot before throwing. Let's say he flips the disc and there's briefly no contact before he grabs and throws it. Does the time the disc is flipping without contact constitute a throw? In earlier rules, tossing or fiddling with the disc was called "padiddling" and could receive a courtesy warning. That's not in the Courtesy section of the current rules.

 

[coupe]

Here's the way I understand it....again, I'm a Certified Official

All that demonstrates is that you know where to find individual rules in the Rule Book; it doesn't prove that you know the rules, much less that you understand them or how to apply them.

The rules do not exist, nor can they be applied, in isolation. They're part of a complex web of inter-related principles that MUST be read synoptically to apply them in a given situation. That's why it's a Rule BOOK rather than simply a list of rules. That's also why the Rule BOOK is exemplary (801.01 Fairness, not exhaustive.

Tossing a disc up does NOT constitute a throw unless it can be demonstrated that: (A) the toss was forward and in the intended direction of the throw (QA-THR-1); AND (B) that the toss changed the disc's position as defined by 805.01 Establishing a Position[url].

Until ALL of those conditions are met, interference does not enter the conversation.

 

[BillFleming]

From my viewpoint....did the player INTEND to throw the disc upwards? If so, that was the "intended direction". An argument could be made that it didn't move forward at the same time it moved upwards.

One thought about this: if tossing a disc upwards and then re-directing it to the basket is not a throw and interference....what would stop a player from throwing a "grenade/thumber/tomahawk/other overhand throw" and then running up to slap the disc into the basket?

Nate's flipping of the disc in his hands is not moving it in any direction, it is spinning in one place.

Personally, if I were to witness this (toss upwards followed by a slap towards the basket) in a tournament (some league play is 'relaxed rules') I would discuss it with the card and suggest the player play a provisional. Then discuss it with the TD and, if needed, I believe the TD can contact the PDGA for a rules decision. ((But if we get a clear answer/decision here, then there wouldn't be a need to discuss it with the TD, etc)).

((P.S. I love what I learn in the Rules forum)).