Legality of a slap putt

[BillFleming]

All that demonstrates is that you know where to find individual rules in the Rule Book; it doesn't prove that you know the rules, much less that you understand them or how to apply them.

Exactly....which is why the rest of my statement said that I'm not a Rules Expert.

I'm still learning and that's why I love the Rules forum.

 

[robdeforge]

Exactly....which is why the rest of my statement said that I'm not a Rules Expert.

I'm still learning and that's why I love the Rules forum.

I appreciate your input! I think I post some of the sillier/more abstract rules questions out there and I can't deny this is both of those haha. hopefully once the season is more in full swing there will be some real life stuff to discuss

 

[Cgkdisc]

One thought about this: if tossing a disc upwards and then re-directing it to the basket is not a throw and interference....what would stop a player from throwing a "grenade/thumber/tomahawk/other overhand throw" and then running up to slap the disc into the basket?

That scenario crossed my mind. But even if you discount the toss in the air, that in this case is moving forward, as "not yet a throw", the player would be foot faulting once moving forward from the lie to actually "make the throw" by trying to redirect the thumber towards the basket.

 

[BillFleming]

Tossing a disc up does NOT constitute a throw unless it can be demonstrated that: (A) the toss was forward and in the intended direction of the throw (QA-THR-1); AND (B) that the toss changed the disc's position as defined by 805.01 Establishing a Position[url].

Until ALL of those conditions are met, interference does not enter the conversation.

That QA-THR-1 was interesting....nowhere else does it say the throw must be forward. And forward isn't defined. Is a Patent-Pending throw forward? It is thrown behind the player (yes it is in the direction of the basket, but it is still thrown backwards). Is forward from the player to the basket? If so, then throwing away from a basket, while 'scrambling' from a bad lie, wouldn't be a throw. Yes, both throws are the intended direction...but they aren't "forward" especially the throw from the bad lie.

I'm leaning it's a throw and interference....but, I can also see where I could be wrong. For me...I'd pass this onto the TD or Rules Committee for a final decision in a tournament.

 

[krupicka]

My advice to players. "Try this at home, but do not do it in a tournament." You don't want to tarnish your performance with what could be a potential interference call. Believe me, the TD is not going to want to have to deal with it if the question comes before him.

 

[teemkey]

As alluded to above, the first rules decision is to determine if the disc was intentionally released by the player, and secondly to determine if the disc was released to change the player's lie.

For example, a player might intentionally release a disc in the direction of their bag, and that would not be considered a throw.

I'd argue that the player attempting a slap putt intentionally released the disc and intended to change their lie by interfering with the disc's flight.

810.E
A player who intentionally interferes with a disc in any of the following ways receives two penalty throws:
1. Altering the course of a thrown disc (other than to prevent injury); or,
2. Moving or obscuring a thrown disc or marker disc (other than in the process of identification, retrieval, marking, or as allowed by 810.H)

Therefore the player should be assessed two penalty throws.

PS: it would be difficult to differentiate a slap putt from a player stopping a roll away with his foot using PDGA rules.

PPS: if the player omits the slap, even a perfectly vertical flight would most probably change the lie.

 

[coupe]

That QA-THR-1 was interesting....nowhere else does it say the throw must be forward. And forward isn't defined. Is a Patent-Pending throw forward? It is thrown behind the player (yes it is in the direction of the basket, but it is still thrown backwards). Is forward from the player to the basket? If so, then throwing away from a basket, while 'scrambling' from a bad lie, wouldn't be a throw. Yes, both throws are the intended direction...but they aren't "forward" especially the throw from the bad lie.

Dude, you're now clearly trolling. Sorry, homie ain't playin' your game. BillFleming is on ignore.

 

[robdeforge]

As alluded to above, the first rules decision is to determine if the disc was intentionally released by the player, and secondly to determine if the disc was released to change the player's lie.

Shouldn't you also consider both of these as well in your decision making process:

Each throw that is made as a competitive attempt to change the lie is counted.

A throw begins when the disc is moving forward in the intended direction.

 

[biscoe]

I am on the side of "technically illegal but why would anyone give a crap?" I also once played a round where I dropkicked all my putts after about half way through.

 

[Jay Dub]

My advice to players. "Try this at home, but do not do it in a tournament." You don't want to tarnish your performance with what could be a potential interference call. Believe me, the TD is not going to want to have to deal with it if the question comes before him.

^^^ This would be my biggest reason to question why anyone would do it. It would just cause another bit of drama for the TD.
Do what you want during casual rounds.

I am on the side of "technically illegal but why would anyone give a crap?" I also once played a round where I dropkicked all my putts after about half way through.

 

[robdeforge]

To further clarify why I posted this - somebody else posted the original video to reddit with the title "Slap Putt? Is it Legal?" and there was somebody in the comments that stated the following:

No.
Once it leaves your hand you can't touch it again until it comes to rest. IIRC, it's a one stroke penalty.

and

Thanks.
Hey, I passed my officials exam!
(Actually if you look below I think I found it's a 2 stroke penalty for intentional interference.)

I see so many people not understanding the rules and playing a lie or a situation incorrectly. Improper footing in relation to the basket or mando, etc. When and where to play from, all that stuff.

All the old guys I play tournaments with all know the rules backwards and forwards.

And, knowing the rules well lets you take advantage of what they give you not just where they punish you.

I find it interesting that people throw out "I pass the officials exam!" as if that proves anything. I feel that there is a possibility that when you consider the totality of the rules that I posted in the OP, this is a kinda weird thing that is 100% legal.

I have no plans to use this in a tournament ever. Just curious is all, not trying to cause drama for anybody

 

[jakebake91]

I, for one, found this discussion fascinating. Usually a rules question is posted, and one of our rules mavens are easily able to answer the question and source it in the book. Generally answers are cut and dry. In this case, it seems, not so much.

 

[robdeforge]

In earlier rules, tossing or fiddling with the disc was called "padiddling" and could receive a courtesy warning.

totally off topic, but for me "padiddle" is a car driving game. you say it when you see a car with a headlight. 1 point per padiddle, I knew some people that had a running count for years. also a "padaddle" is when one brake light is out

 

[Jay Dub]

totally off topic, but for me "padiddle" is a car driving game. you say it when you see a car with a headlight. 1 point per padiddle, I knew some people that had a running count for years. also a "padaddle" is when one brake light is out

We played that game. But all we did was hit a sibling until a parent yelled at us to stop.

As far as the rules, my head is stuck in the 1988 rule book. I played for 5 years under those rules, knew them real well at the time but have never kept up with the newer releases.

I should stay out of these discussions, less confusion for everyone.

 

[jakebake91]

totally off topic, but for me "padiddle" is a car driving game. you say it when you see a car with a headlight. 1 point per padiddle, I knew some people that had a running count for years. also a "padaddle" is when one brake light is out

Semis were always worth 5 points too! That's how my sister and I grew up playing it. There's some long almost forgotten memories!

 

[Nale72]

Is it interference = two penalty throws?

810 Interference E:

E A player who intentionally interferes with a disc in any of the following ways receives two penalty throws:
1 Altering the course of a thrown disc (other than to prevent injury); or,
2 Moving or obscuring a thrown disc or marker disc (other than in the process of identification, retrieval, marking, or as allowed by 810.H).

Ok, so yes, if a player interferes with a thrown disc . But what is a Thrown disc?

802.01 Throw
A. A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position. Each throw that is made as a competitive attempt to change the lie is counted.


So, for it to be a throw you must release the disc in a competitive attempt to change the lie.

Rules Questions and Answers
THROW
QA-THR-1: My throwing hand bumped a tree branch during my backswing, knocking the disc to the ground, and the disc rolled forward of my lie. Was that a throw?
No. A throw begins when the disc is moving forward in the intended direction. A disc dropped or knocked out before or during a backswing does not count as a throw.

And to clarify the disc must have started moving forward in the intended direction (So as to the previous discussion of forward with patent pending, the whole sentence is not only forward, but forward in the intended direction)

So, to be a throw you have to release the disc in a competitive attempt to change the lie and the disc must have started moving in the intended direction.

My take on the situation in the example in the OP is that when the disc is tossed straight up in the air, this is not a "throw" since it a, did not start moving in the intended direction (towards the basket) and b, it was not a compentitive attempt to change the lie.

I would compare this with someone standing with a disc in their hand and just throwing it up an catching it a couple of times, like many players do both while waiting and also before making a put.

If the disc being tossed straight up in the air is not a "throw" you won't get two penalty throws, because there hasn't been a thrown disc to interfere.

So is slapping a disc a allowed way to make a throw?

Rules Q & A
QA-THR-2: Are there any restrictions on how you throw the disc? For example, can you throw nothing but overhand shots?
There are no restrictions on how you throw the disc. You may throw backhand, sidearm, overhand, thumber, or any other way that occurs to you. You can throw it with your foot if you want.


This isn't totally clear to me. But it says there is not restriction on how you throw the disc and that a throw is a"propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position".

I can't say for sure that the rules don't allow you to push or hit a disc to make a valid throw according to the current rules.

801.03 Appeals
A. When a group cannot reach a majority decision regarding a ruling, the ruling is based on the interpretation that is most beneficial to the thrower.

"When in doubt, go with the thrower" would make me to accept a throw like this under the current rules if someone can't show me some other part of the rules than the above that disallows it.

I would however not recommend a "slap putt" and would welcome some kind of additional wording in the rules or a Q&A addition that wouldn't allow it. But as my conclution as to the above I can't find any support in the current rules to not allow it.

*Edits to correct spelling and grammar errors since English isn't my first language.*

 

[BillFleming]

Dude, you're now clearly trolling. Sorry, homie ain't playin' your game. BillFleming is on ignore.

I'm really not trolling. I am just posting my thoughts based on the rules as I understand them. Can't learn if you don't ask.

 

[R-Ogre]

If the initial toss is not considered the throw, then would it not be a practice throw and subject to a stroke penalty?

A. A practice throw is any throw that is not made as a competitive attempt to change the lie, except for a throw that is made either to set aside an unused disc or to return a disc to a player and that travels less than five meters in the air. A drop is not a practice throw. Practice throws are disregarded.
B. A player receives one penalty throw for making a practice throw

Seems to me either the toss up is a throw and then the slap becomes interference, or the toss up is a practice throw and doesn't count. Either way there is a re-throw and a penalty. Since we're splitting hairs...

 

[teemkey]

Shouldn't you also consider both of these as well in your decision making process:

1. Each throw that is made as a competitive attempt to change the lie is counted.

I said "I'd argue that the player attempting a slap putt intentionally released the disc and intended to change their lie by interfering with the disc's flight."

2. A throw begins when the disc is moving forward in the intended direction.

That is a poorly worded definition. If I grip lock 90 degrees off my intended line is it not a throw (e.g. google "WTF Richard")?

 

[BillFleming]

1. Each throw that is made as a competitive attempt to change the lie is counted.

I said "I'd argue that the player attempting a slap putt intentionally released the disc and intended to change their lie by interfering with the disc's flight."

2. A throw begins when the disc is moving forward in the intended direction.

That is a poorly worded definition. If I grip lock 90 degrees off my intended line is it not a throw (e.g. google "WTF Richard")?

Thank you....the "grip lock" was another throw I had just thought of that doesn't match the criteria - if a throw is 1) forward and 2) the intended direction.

My posts haven't been trolling or "being an a$$". Instead, I'm trying to debate and understand the rule...unfortunately common sense doesn't apply when it comes to rules and there are players who don't use common sense.

If the definition of a throw is "when the disc is moving forward in the intended direction"...then that leaves openings for players to argue that their throw isn't a throw.

1. Patent Pending: Intended direction - yes. Forward - ?? this can be argued...it's going forward in the direction of the basket, but backward in relation to the player.

2. Scramble backwards/sideways: Intended direction - yes. Forward - no.

3. Grip lock: Intended direction - no. Forward - no.

With #3 is also throws that the wind drastically affects.

It would be nice if common sense were a rule ... it would solve so many issues... but it isn't and I know of players who would definitely argue their 'throws' aren't throws based on the criteria of "forward" and "intended direction".

I would like to see a definite definition of Throw for disc golf.

Until a Rules Committee person chimes in or someone else posts a clear, definite answer...throw seems to be up to debate.