McBeth vs. Climo

[ChrisWoj]

I don't think this is quantifiable or even important in the discussion. What did he do that was so tough and made you want to quit? Give you funny looks? Blow his cig in your face? Just sounds like tall tales to me.

Not quantifiable - but there's truth to it. It isn't so much intimidation tactics as much as the attitude wears on you. He has absolute belief he's going to throw the best shot every time the card steps up to the tee, and he backs it up enough that it rubs off. You were there when I golfed with him on lead at the Jacksonville Open - I didn't really get to play "against" him because he had me by 2 and increased that lead quick in beating me by 13 that round but I got to see him playing heads up with JohnE and he was relentless. And if any conversation came up that involved any element of any sort of competition in any pursuit, talking non-disc golf... he was the best at that too. I wasn't impacted by it, I was in his tail-lights too early for that to happen, but I can definitely see how it can wear on a person.

Not that it wore on JohnE that round. He and Ken shot matching 1070s.

 

[Grippenripp]

Why is this still a thing?

Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk

 

[Ryan C]

Couldn't win Worlds? Barsby's better than Climo? (Anyone else waiting around for Climo's impression of Barsby . ... ? Just me?) Couldn't win regularly? He was 1040 rated as an old person. He could and would win regularly if he were in his prime now.

Could he not beat McBeth if they started at the same time . . .. ? He may have -- Climo stomped everyone into submission. I'm sure JohnE wants Ken to heal up and get back out there kicking his butt relentlessly. Barry -- hoping to see Kenny healed up? Didn't know Ron Russel but seemed like a mean cuss from the videos and I'm guessing that's what it would take to win when Climo was young. (Isn't Russell a roofer? They're wayyy above average on the toughness scale . . . .just saying.)

I know -- different time, etc. but we're what-iffing here and similar to Nicklaus v. Tiger, it's still Nicklaus. Tiger gets his 18th -- OK, we go to column B and Tiger's better. Paul gets his 12th, OK, Paul's better. Otherwise, be second.

(Note - Tiger gets to 17 (16?) I may renege on this along with if Paul makes 11(10?) . .. just saying.)

What I really was getting at is more "sustained season-long performance." If Climo was dropped into the current competitive climate in his athletic prime, I don't believe he would ever have his overall tour statistics surpass McBeth. In a given tournament, sure, a lot of people could have a hot weekend and take one down. Just over time, over many courses, McBeth will consistently dominate any version of Climo. I don't think I could be persuaded otherwise.

 

[Hampstead]

Could McBeth make all those long putts on Mach IIIs?

McBeth won the BHMO a few years ago. The course still had antiquated Mach IIIs. Some other pros complained and called them crappy baskets. McBeth just laughed and said he grew up putting on "crappy" baskets.

 

[sidewinder22]

McBeth won the BHMO a few years ago. The course still had antiquated Mach IIIs. Some other pros complained and called them crappy baskets. McBeth just laughed and said he grew up putting on "crappy" baskets.

That doesn't really tell us anything statistically. Guessing he putted softer on them and expected some spit outs, compared to modern baskets.

 

[biscoe]

What I really was getting at is more "sustained season-long performance." If Climo was dropped into the current competitive climate in his athletic prime, I don't believe he would ever have his overall tour statistics surpass McBeth. In a given tournament, sure, a lot of people could have a hot weekend and take one down. Just over time, over many courses, McBeth will consistently dominate any version of Climo. I don't think I could be persuaded otherwise.

Climo's rating at age 40 compared with McBeth's now would indicate Paul to be a stroke or 2 better per round depending on the course. Why would you not think that Climo was a stroke or 2 better at age 28 than 40?

 

[Ryan C]

Climo's rating at age 40 compared with McBeth's now would indicate Paul to be a stroke or 2 better per round depending on the course. Why would you not think that Climo was a stroke or 2 better at age 28 than 40?

Because I believe he is more than a stroke or two better on average. Your idea is based on rating, and my whole premise is that since rating is based on your comparison to the field, it is harder to be 1040 rated now than it used to be.

 

[biscoe]

Because I believe he is more than a stroke or two better on average. Your idea is based on rating, and my whole premise is that since rating is based on your comparison to the field, it is harder to be 1040 rated now than it used to be.

You do realize that all ratings are based on past results do you not? While there may be a bit of depression over the years due to various factors, everyone's rating today originally stemmed from one PDGA World Championships in the late 90's. (In Cincinatti, I think)

 

[DiscFifty]

i do remember him saying that the courses were too easy (lack of shot shaping) and that a Worlds Title shouldn't be achieved by winning what he called " a putting contest".

Interesting! Seems that's exactly where we are at in 2019.

 

[Ryan C]

You do realize that all ratings are based on past results do you not? While there may be a bit of depression over the years due to various factors, everyone's rating today originally stemmed from one PDGA World Championships in the late 90's. (In Cincinatti, I think)

The current rating system started in 2002. The ratings are currently an average of your rounds from the last year. The way each round's rating is derived is based on the course's "rating," which is based on how all the rated propogator's of that round shot on that individual round. You can look all this up on PDGA's website. They are pretty clear that if you have players playing worse or better than their ratings on a given day, it will skew everyone's round ratings up or down, although they say it will usually only be by a few percent. Anyway, since the average skill of players has gone up over time (I don't think you are denying this), that means to play "scratch golf" you need to be better than you used to have to be for the same rating. Paul McBeth is rated higher than Ken Climo ever was in a much broader, tougher field.

 

[JC17393]

The current rating system started in 2002. The ratings are currently an average of your rounds from the last year. The way each round's rating is derived is based on the course's "rating," which is based on how all the rated propogator's of that round shot on that individual round. You can look all this up on PDGA's website. They are pretty clear that if you have players playing worse or better than their ratings on a given day, it will skew everyone's round ratings up or down, although they say it will usually only be by a few percent. Anyway, since the average skill of players has gone up over time (I don't think you are denying this), that means to play "scratch golf" you need to be better than you used to have to be for the same rating. Paul McBeth is rated higher than Ken Climo ever was in a much broader, tougher field.

Nothing biscoe said is wrong. The origins of the ratings began at the 1998 Pro Worlds in Cincinnati. They had to get propagators from somewhere...they came out of that field of players and spread around the country. I joined in late 2000 and had my first rating in April 2001. By the end of 2001, ratings had promulgated to enough members that they could start using them as official dividing lines between amateur divisions, hence what you call the "official" start of ratings in 2002. But it took three years of data collecting to build up the system we take for granted today.

 

[Ryan C]

Nothing biscoe said is wrong. The origins of the ratings began at the 1998 Pro Worlds in Cincinnati. They had to get propagators from somewhere...they came out of that field of players and spread around the country. I joined in late 2000 and had my first rating in April 2001. By the end of 2001, ratings had promulgated to enough members that they could start using them as official dividing lines between amateur divisions, hence what you call the "official" start of ratings in 2002. But it took three years of data collecting to build up the system we take for granted today.

Okay sure, 1998 is where ratings first started. That doesn't mean anything else I said was incorrect. The same ratings trend we see today in disc golf is true of every other sport with similar ratings. Take chess for an example. Since ELO became a thing in chess, the top players have always topped out at similar ratings, but the skill level of those players today is much higher than it was back when chess was less competitive and the theory behind it wasn't computer aided.

 

[lyleoross]

You do realize that all ratings are based on past results do you not? While there may be a bit of depression over the years due to various factors, everyone's rating today originally stemmed from one PDGA World Championships in the late 90's. (In Cincinatti, I think)

I'm confused? Are you trying to say that every player rating is directly relatable to every other player rating throughout the history of ratings?

 

[Ryan C]

I'm confused? Are you trying to say that every player rating is directly relatable to every other player rating throughout the history of ratings?

Yeah, I was a little confused by that comment also. I'm not trying to get into a technical argument about how ratings work, but I'm afraid this discussion may (d)evolve into that.

 

[BlueMonk]

Has anyone else noticed how much disdain Climo has for McBeth? He's made it very clear on facebook, with zingers such as "get those McNuts out of your mouth" Clearly there is some jealousy/resentment there. It's hard to blame him though, McBeth gets to tour in relative luxury comparatively. He gets to train at his own facility, whereas Kenny would have to work construction during the week.

Are you sure it's really Ken? I've never seen a Climo social media account. There was a spoof Twitter account that isn't active anymore. Link?

 

[brutalbrutus]

Well, Paul just broke one of the champ's records...

https://www.pdga.com/news/mcbeth-now-tops-career-winnings-list

McBeth's $3,510 from his victory at the Jonesboro Open last weekend brought his career winnings total to $432,908.09, which helped him leapfrog 12-time PDGA World Champion Ken Climo on the money list.

 

[JC17393]

Well, Paul just broke one of the champ's records...

https://www.pdga.com/news/mcbeth-now-tops-career-winnings-list

Would love to see the numbers adjusted for inflation just to get a better 1:1 comparison.

It's a fun stat, but not all that meaningful IMO. I'm betting there's money missing from Climo's record as not every tournament is recorded digitally in the PDGA database, and McBeth is clearly benefiting from there being more tournaments to play and more money to win in general. Just look at ball golf. The 100th guy on last year's PGA money list has probably earned more in his career than some of the greatest champions of the past (even adjusted for inflation).

A LOT of people are going to end up passing Climo on the career earnings chart. Congrats to McBeth for being the first.

 

[Therealgoat]

Has anyone else noticed how much disdain Climo has for McBeth? He's made it very clear on facebook, with zingers such as "get those McNuts out of your mouth" Clearly there is some jealousy/resentment there. It's hard to blame him though, McBeth gets to tour in relative luxury comparatively. He gets to train at his own facility, whereas Kenny would have to work construction during the week.

Well, at least four years ago he seemed to be a pretty good sport about the McBeast:

 

[ru4por]

Well, at least four years ago he seemed to be a pretty good sport about the McBeast:

I have never seen this. It is soo stupid, it is very funny. McBeth and Climo acting out The Devil Went Down to Georgia, lol.

The devil bowed his head
because he knew that he'd been beat
and he laid that golden fiddle
on the ground at johnny's feet
Johnny said, devil just come on back
if you ever wanna try again
i done told you once you son of a bitch
i'm the best that's ever been

 

[Three Putt]

Would love to see the numbers adjusted for inflation just to get a better 1:1 comparison.

It's a fun stat, but not all that meaningful IMO. I'm betting there's money missing from Climo's record as not every tournament is recorded digitally in the PDGA database, and McBeth is clearly benefiting from there being more tournaments to play and more money to win in general. Just look at ball golf. The 100th guy on last year's PGA money list has probably earned more in his career than some of the greatest champions of the past (even adjusted for inflation).

A LOT of people are going to end up passing Climo on the career earnings chart. Congrats to McBeth for being the first.

Here is your reality check RE: Inflation. Check out the Climo stats for 1995. 26 Tournaments. 23 First place finishes, three second place finishes. He won World's and Japan, the two Majors that year. He won eight A Tiers, which were the big events of that day. The three events he didn't win were A tiers; he finished 2nd in those three. Just dominating.

PDGA lists his winnings for all that at $19,107.18. :| Edit: according to the inflation calculator, that would have been right at $31,500 in 2018.

I don't think much is missing from those numbers, I recall his winnings listed in DGWN that year being right around $20,000. One of the A tiers he won paid $489 to win. Another paid $600. He had five $1,000+ paydays; his big paydays were Japan at $4,350 and World's at $2,350.

There was no USDGC with the $10,000 payday back then. Climo was probably 32 or 33 and had been dominating disc golf for a decade before that event started. That he won it as many times as he did on the backside of what we consider an athletes prime years is amazing.

McBeth won $1,000+ 20 times last year with nine wins. He picked up $10,000 at USDGC. He won $57,880.00 in a year when he came nowhere close to winning 23 of 26 tournaments. The amount of money you can win playing disc golf today VS. Climo's prime is apples/oranges. Comparing Climo's winnings vs. McBeth's winnings is a pretty useless comparison.