McBeth vs. Climo

[ChrisWoj]

There was no USDGC with the $10,000 payday back then. Climo was probably 32 or 33 and had been dominating disc golf for a decade before that event started. That he won it as many times as he did on the backside of what we consider an athletes prime years is amazing.

Right *at* 30 years old when USDGC started.

 

[JC17393]

I don't think much is missing from those numbers, I recall his winnings listed in DGWN that year being right around $20,000. One of the A tiers he won paid $489 to win. Another paid $600. He had five $1,000+ paydays; his big paydays were Japan at $4,350 and World's at $2,350.

I don't think it's a lot missing, but one big omission for sure is National Doubles. I know Climo played that a bunch and won it at least a couple times, and it was probably one of the higher paying events on tour at the time. I don't think those missing numbers amount to a lot Even if they were included, McBeth probably still eclipses Climo's raw total by mid-summer.

The larger point is the one that you flesh out, and that's that purses are bigger and tournaments are more plentiful. You don't have to win 23 of 28 events to top the yearly earnings list these days. Just consistent top 5 finishes and select wins at the right events should do it.

It's a cool stat. It just doesn't tell much of a story about the players. More about the state of the sport during each's career.

 

[ChrisWoj]

The larger point is the one that you flesh out, and that's that purses are bigger and tournaments are more plentiful. You don't have to win 23 of 28 events to top the yearly earnings list these days. Just consistent top 5 finishes and select wins at the right events should do it.

Did Climo have to win 23 of 28 to top the yearly earnings list?

 

[JC17393]

Did Climo have to win 23 of 28 to top the yearly earnings list?

Probably not in his case. I imagine winning Worlds alone gave him a huge jump on the rest of the field because what tournament was paying out better than that one?

I expect given the lack of a true "tour" back then, the top money earners in any given year weren't necessarily a who's who of "touring" players so much as a list of the top dogs from different regions. Like if there was a dominant player in, say, the mid-Atlantic who won 10 out of 15 events he played locally, he might get himself into the list of top earners without ever actually going head to head with Climo or any other "top" names in the sport because he didn't travel far from home and few if any of them came into his area.

 

[DiscJunkie]

Without picking sides, the comparisons become less meaningful each year.
One point in particular is the advent of the one-round-a-day, three-round tournaments.
Or the 4-round PDGA Worlds.
Shortened formats favor the streaky player.
The two-rounds-a-day weekend (often plus a Final Nine) and 8-round PDGA Worlds favored the better player and the player in the better physical condition (namely Kenny in his day and Paul now).
It is difficult to see how Paul will be able dominate today the way that Kenny did back in the 90's and 2000's with shortened tourneys favoring hot players.
Think about who would've won after four rounds of the PDGA Worlds from 2012-2015 (Paul's streak). I don't think Paul would have won any of them after four rounds.
For that matter, does anyone think that Barsby would've won 2018 if it had gone another 2 or 3 rounds??
Again, for reasons that have nothing to do with the players, (the game changes, the courses change, the competition changes) it is nearly impossible to construct any reliable metric to compare the two.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Without picking sides, the comparisons become less meaningful each year.
One point in particular is the advent of the one-round-a-day, three-round tournaments.
Or the 4-round PDGA Worlds.
Shortened formats favor the streaky player.
The two-rounds-a-day weekend (often plus a Final Nine) and 8-round PDGA Worlds favored the better player and the player in the better physical condition (namely Kenny in his day and Paul now).
It is difficult to see how Paul will be able dominate today the way that Kenny did back in the 90's and 2000's with shortened tourneys favoring hot players.
Think about who would've won after four rounds of the PDGA Worlds from 2012-2015 (Paul's streak). I don't think Paul would have won any of them after four rounds.
For that matter, does anyone think that Barsby would've won 2018 if it had gone another 2 or 3 rounds??
Again, for reasons that have nothing to do with the players, (the game changes, the courses change, the competition changes) it is nearly impossible to construct any reliable metric to compare the two.

All hail your 2012 world champion - Michael Jo.

 

[JC17393]

Think about who would've won after four rounds of the PDGA Worlds from 2012-2015 (Paul's streak). I don't think Paul would have won any of them after four rounds.

I understand what you're saying, but I also don't think that it is as simple as looking at the standings after 4 rounds (like Chris did above) and saying "that guy would have won". Knowing there are 6 or 7 rounds as opposed to 3 or 4 will change how everyone is approaching the tournament.

Would Paul have won four in a row if those were all four (or five) round tournaments? Maybe, maybe not. I don't think the length of the tournament is the only or primary reason he won, and he's certainly won more than his fair share of 3-4 round tournaments to prove it isn't all about how many rounds are played. But it is true that the more rounds that are played, the more the cream will rise to the top. The highest rated players will always be advantaged by playing more rounds.

 

[DiscJunkie]

But it is true that the more rounds that are played, the more the cream will rise to the top. The highest rated players will always be advantaged by playing more rounds.

That's all I'm saying, that Climo played at a time when 8 round PDGA Worlds were a given. A hot round would only get you so far. Like when MJ shot that mind-blowing 17(?) down at Bradford in 2012 (1113 rated). It was a great performance, but it didn't give him the win. MJ had to play 5 more rounds and the Final 9.
McBeth plays during a time when that kind of performance, one or two hot rounds, wins PDGA Worlds.
If MPO had continued playing 8 rounds for the PDGA Worlds, my bet is that Paul would have more than 4.
If MPO were playing 4 or 5 rounds in Climo's time, I doubt he would have 12.
But compare the two for greatness?
McBeth is the best right now.
Climo was the best back then.

 

[Three Putt]

I don't think it's a lot missing, but one big omission for sure is National Doubles. I know Climo played that a bunch and won it at least a couple times, and it was probably one of the higher paying events on tour at the time.

'95 National Doubles is oddly not posted on the PDGA site, but most of the rest of the years are. The winning pair pretty consistently cashed out in the neighborhood of $700/player. Climo and David Greenwell I know won that event at least once, and given how unbeatable Climo was in '95 it would make sense that they would have won that year.

 

[lyleoross]

Here is your reality check RE: Inflation. Check out the Climo stats for 1995. 26 Tournaments. 23 First place finishes, three second place finishes. He won World's and Japan, the two Majors that year. He won eight A Tiers, which were the big events of that day. The three events he didn't win were A tiers; he finished 2nd in those three. Just dominating.

PDGA lists his winnings for all that at $19,107.18. :| Edit: according to the inflation calculator, that would have been right at $31,500 in 2018.

I don't think much is missing from those numbers, I recall his winnings listed in DGWN that year being right around $20,000. One of the A tiers he won paid $489 to win. Another paid $600. He had five $1,000+ paydays; his big paydays were Japan at $4,350 and World's at $2,350.

There was no USDGC with the $10,000 payday back then. Climo was probably 32 or 33 and had been dominating disc golf for a decade before that event started. That he won it as many times as he did on the backside of what we consider an athletes prime years is amazing.

McBeth won $1,000+ 20 times last year with nine wins. He picked up $10,000 at USDGC. He won $57,880.00 in a year when he came nowhere close to winning 23 of 26 tournaments. The amount of money you can win playing disc golf today VS. Climo's prime is apples/oranges. Comparing Climo's winnings vs. McBeth's winnings is a pretty useless comparison.

um, I think you need to go from "comparing winnings is useless," to "pretty much any comparison is useless." . But lots-o-fun.

 

[biscoe]

I'm confused? Are you trying to say that every player rating is directly relatable to every other player rating throughout the history of ratings?

Directly? No. Indirectly? without question.

Chuck and Roger took the cash line at 98 Cincinatti Worlds (pretty sure that was the event) and set that as 1000 rated. Initially only the players playing that event would have had ratings. They then "went forth and propagated" so to speak. At that point C&R were actually looking for a way to compare courses moreso than players. I'm sure Chuck will correct me if I am wrong. Since then ratings spread outward like ripples in a pool from those initial propagators.

 

[lyleoross]

Directly? No. Indirectly? without question.

Chuck and Roger took the cash line at 98 Cincinatti Worlds (pretty sure that was the event) and set that as 1000 rated. Initially only the players playing that event would have had ratings. They then "went forth and propagated" so to speak. At that point C&R were actually looking for a way to compare courses moreso than players. I'm sure Chuck will correct me if I am wrong. Since then ratings spread outward like ripples in a pool from those initial propagators.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying they relate because they all came from the same starting point. To me, that isn't the same as saying that a rating from a round thrown at this year's USDGC is directly relatable to a round rating at an event in 1995 or so. Or that comparing a players rating in 2019 directly to a player's rating in 1995 has merit. So, are you saying that those are worthwhile comparisons?

My 2013 subaru WRX is related to Benz's first automobile, but I'd never think the two were relatable. I wouldn't think a model T was relatable to Benz's first vehicle either.

 

[lyleoross]

Some of the comments here made me consider the Paul Ken relationship in a different way. The discussions centered around Climo's mental ferocity intrigue me. We've seen that in one instance, where Climo went after Stokely on a foot fault. I'm not questioning the fault, simply observing how Climo went after him. At the time many felt that Patrick Brown and Climo went after Stokely. Climo made the call, a fairly unusual call in open field situations, and without a thought, Brown seconded. Stokely threw again and the call sequence was repeated. It was brutal and completely killed Stokley's tournament.

As an aside, the event annoyed me for two reasons, I've seen Kenny footfault plenty and don't ever recall someone calling him out. And the calls really did seem coordinated, as if Ken and Patrick agreed Stokely was faulting and went after him. Given the type of call, it seemed cynical.

If part of Ken's vaunted mental approach was going after his competitors, I have to wonder how well that would transfer to today's more videos and commented on rounds? How would fans comment about such tactics and how long, given today's environment, before someone told him to knock it off? For example, there was the sign incident where a sign showed up in a location it hadn't been the year before and Ken melted because it was in his way. I can see a player telling him to knock it off, see Jerm telling Nikko to knock it off when Nikko was dressing down a basket for not holding onto his putt.

So, how well would Ken and Paul match up twenty years ago, and how much of Ken's edge would be taken away in Paul's environment, today?

 

[BuiltTooLong]

Are you sure it's really Ken? I've never seen a Climo social media account. There was a spoof Twitter account that isn't active anymore. Link?

He shares one with his spouse.

https://www.facebook.com/kellywnekken.climo

But it's def not a spoof account and I don't have a link to this specific comment. He's made other bitter comments as well though unfortunately.

 

[7ontheline]

So, how well would Ken and Paul match up twenty years ago, and how much of Ken's edge would be taken away in Paul's environment, today?

Three years ago, Paul put Ricky on blast about his mental game. It could be argued that it may have backfired and pissed Ricky off enough for him to make every putt for the following two years including two world titles.

Maybe for Paul it's just easier to not poke the bear where Scott S might not handle the gamesmanship, so everyone's different, go figure

 

[lyleoross]

Three years ago, Paul put Ricky on blast about his mental game. It could be argued that it may have backfired and pissed Ricky off enough for him to make every putt for the following two years including two world titles.

Maybe for Paul it's just easier to not poke the bear where Scott S might not handle the gamesmanship, so everyone's different, go figure

Absolutely! It's interesting how such things go. But I'd argue the situations are quite different. Paul poked Ricky in public, in an interview nonetheless. Climo's mo was on the course. It sounds like he rode the guys on his card like a horse. Both directly, and indirectly. To my knowledge, Paul doesn't do this. Yes, I've seen some calls on a few things, but they were one-offs and seemed to be pretty minor overall.

It is quite possible that Paul regretted his poke at Ricky, although at the time, some, many thought it was less gamesmanship than marketing per se. Regardless, I'd not give Paul credit for Ricky's wins, i.e. he poked Ricky. I'd give Ricky's focus and hard work credit for that, but that is just me.

But you raise an interesting question. Are players today more resistant to online or public poking than players of twenty years ago? There are studies that show millennials and younger are much less phased by online attacks than older folks.

For me, the question is still open, how does Ken perform in a more modern setting? And how would Paul do back then?

 

[Steve West]

My 2013 subaru WRX is related to Benz's first automobile, but I'd never think the two were relatable.

You can certainly compare how fast they go. Even if you use each car's own speedometer, because they both derive their calibration of speed back to the same original source.

 

[Three Putt]

He shares one with his spouse.

https://www.facebook.com/kellywnekken.climo

But it's def not a spoof account and I don't have a link to this specific comment. He's made other bitter comments as well though unfortunately.

Climo is my age and the comments I've read of his sounded to me like the stuff people our age would say on the course to each other in the 90's to ride each other. When it's said quickly with no one reflecting on it, it's seen by many as funny ribbing, just trying to get under somebody's skin.

Once it's typed out and sits around for people to ponder the meaning of it, you start to see that it's not funny. It sounds blunt and bitter and such. It's not the type of comment that is supposed to be reflected upon. It's supposed to hit quick, make a bunch of grown men regress to the mentality of jr. high kids and giggle, and make the target possibly fume just long enough to shank a drive or miss a putt.

So I don't see it as him actually being bitter. I just see him as a guy who isn't really comfortable in the online world posting in a way that he would talk on the course and not really realizing how it comes off in the online environment.

tl;dr. Some of us don't realize we aren't funny.

 

[lyleoross]

You can certainly compare how fast they go. Even if you use each car's own speedometer, because they both derive their calibration of speed back to the same original source.

Really? The Benz didn't have a speedometer. Could you predict how fast a car would drive in 2019 based on the Benz?

Now, as fun as this is, a direct question might be best, do you feel that the rating of a player from 1995 directly compares to the rating of a player in 2019? One to one?

 

[Lurp Nuts]

pretty self explanatory.

after seeing McBeth wipe the floor this year, starting to feel it's him.

kenny just appears so one-dimensional now in retrospect...

I'm disappointed that you created a poll, and immediately tried to sway it in the first post. Poor form.

Example:

This is a poll about whether you think the TWELVE TIME wold champion KEN CLIMO, also known simply as "THE CHAMP," and the undisputed king of disc golf for an entire decade is the best disc golfer ever, or that new kid paul macbeth has what it takes to be spoken of in the same sentence with the GOAT.

Leave your mostly irrelevant responses below. (We all know who it is)