McBeth vs. Climo

[Jah Plastifari]

I played with Climo at the Memorial in '02. I maxed at 390' back then and he was easily out driving me around 40' to 60' on the long holes. Valks were the longest disc at the time.

 

[air show]

Well..you already know how I feel about your distance estimations. j/k And btw..I'm not saying Climo couldn't throw past 350, I have no idea what his max distance was, I'm just saying I've never seen it on video (yes I know no Jomez) and he probably didn't need to throw that far to win those championships. When did you see him throw 450? What course/hole was that? That's a huge bomb for a backhand player back in the day.

The first big drive I had ever seen was by Kenny. After facemasking a 25 foot putt on hole 16 at Rosedale park (old layout) here in KC... Kenny steps up to tee pad 17... a 530 foot wide open hole and takes out his aggression with a drive at least
450ft. then let's out a large grunt afterwards. I believe the year was 1999. I remember it as if it was yesterday. So if Kenny's power is In question there's no problem there.

 

[ejvogie]

Jump ahead 20 years from now and for the sake of the discussion McBeth never won another Worlds title. Everyone would then agree Climo was the best.
Same with present day, Mcbeth only has 5 World titles so it's too early to say if he will end up winning more than Climo has. If he keeps this pace up there's a good chance he will but he has not done it yet.

Also, I doubt we see anyone ever win 9 in a row ever again.

9? Whatever the number is, it isn't happening.

 

[mcodyclapp]

This is an area where the equipment absolutely does matter. No way you could use a modern putt on the baskets Climo was putting on. His pitch putt was specifically designed to be caught by the baskets of the day. Back then players didn't complain about spit outs, they modified their putt to stick in the baskets that they had. To your point, yes McBeth would dominate on modern baskets, but he would have to change significantly to be successful in the KC era.

If you listen to the episode of The Buzzz with MJ he specifically talks about how people complained about various baskets back in the day, and how then, just like now, a great player adjusts to make it work. I don't think McBeth is suddenly a second class putter if you stuck him on Mach 2s.

You should also check out Paul's video of him practicing with no band/chains. He drills low on the pole putt after putt after putt after putt.

Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk

 

[foreputt]

Why can't Climo play now?

If you can throw 300' with accuracy you can shoot a good score on any course.

I don't know when the last time he played was but maybe he just sucks now. If not let's get him out there.

 

[sidewinder22]

Why can't Climo play now?

If you can throw 300' with accuracy you can shoot a good score on any course.

I don't know when the last time he played was but maybe he just sucks now. If not let's get him out there.

Hip/back injury.

 

[Casey 1988]

If you listen to the episode of The Buzzz with MJ he specifically talks about how people complained about various baskets back in the day, and how then, just like now, a great player adjusts to make it work. I don't think McBeth is suddenly a second class putter if you stuck him on Mach 2s.

You should also check out Paul's video of him practicing with no band/chains. He drills low on the pole putt after putt after putt after putt.

Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk

Yep and there is a video where Paul McBeth misses with the first 5 discs but then dials it in with his putters to make it on a portable basketball hoop. So yeah he adjusts to what he is putting into better then most.

 

[DiscFifty]

Climo won 12x in MPO and 3x in Masters age divisions for 15x total. Is that correct? If so, I could definitely can see Paul winning another 7 in MPO and taking down several more in the master's division(s). I'm also guessing Paul will have the luxury of better training, medical, etc, due to financial opportunities allowing him stay focused just on disc golf his entire career.

Let's don't overlook Paige Pierce, the race to 16x could be won by a female.

 

[perklc]

If you listen to the episode of The Buzzz with MJ he specifically talks about how people complained about various baskets back in the day, and how then, just like now, a great player adjusts to make it work. I don't think McBeth is suddenly a second class putter if you stuck him on Mach 2s.

You should also check out Paul's video of him practicing with no band/chains. He drills low on the pole putt after putt after putt after putt.

Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk

I think I remember hearing/reading that Paul played on old style baskets which helped him develop a softer touch on his putt. I think someone like Ricky would have a harder time adjusting (though obviously he would figure it out) if you stuck him on Mach 2s. He really struggled with spit outs at 2017 Ledgestone on Chainstars.

 

[Moose33]

Hip/back injury.

Pretty gnarly one if I remember correctly. He was still playing at a very high level up until that happened 4ish years ago.

 

[araytx]

Why can't Climo play now?

If you can throw 300' with accuracy you can shoot a good score on any course.

I don't know when the last time he played was but maybe he just sucks now. If not let's get him out there.

Hip/back injury.

Or maybe he has uh, I don't know, a FAMILY!!! Dude is 51 years old. He may be playing a lot more than we think, just maybe with his own family and not competitive events

Climo won 12x in MPO and 3x in Masters age divisions for 15x total. Is that correct? If so, I could definitely can see Paul winning another 7 in MPO and taking down several more in the master's division(s). I'm also guessing Paul will have the luxury of better training, medical, etc, due to financial opportunities allowing him stay focused just on disc golf his entire career.

Let's don't overlook Paige Pierce, the race to 16x could be won by a female.

Wow. Bold. If that happens they certainly would get my vote ... because that would mean THEY BOTH would have to win more WCs after the age of 30 than before. Not even Champ can claim that.

But now that you know that, I think everyone can see that is a high proposition. To do it all before he's eligible for MP40 in the year 2030, Paul would have to win Worlds 7 of the next 10 years, five of those in the years he's 35-39. And Paige would be FP40 eligible the following year, so what, 7 of the next 11 for her? All while new younger players keep appearing. Take Tristan Tanner for example, just started playing 2 1/2 years ago and rising so fast his rating hasn't caught up with his on-course tournament play yet. I never say never, but wow, that thought seems lofty. Plus for both of them you never know when FAMILY or other issues in life become a factor. But again, if they do it, all credit to them and even I will change and say they would then be the greatest.

Think about this, though. They both got the big contract from Discraft, in my mind, because the thinking was at their ages (both were 28 when they got the deals), they know that there may not be another 5-year deal like that when they turn 33, 34, or 35. Would that be a way to be sure they continue touring comfortably in their prime while on top, while in the back of their minds being sure they are set up for life AFTER full-time touring? hmmmmm...

 

[scooby snack]

In addition to collecting world championships, I've heard Climo wasn't to shabby at freestyle.

 

[Getty]

In addition to collecting world championships, I've heard Climo wasn't to shabby at freestyle.

All clock, all day. He can gitis and scarecrow and do other restricted catches. He makes good sets and naturally has good throws for Zs. I'll link some video if I can find it.

 

[Getty]

All clock, all day. He can gitis and scarecrow and do other restricted catches. He makes good sets and naturally has good throws for Zs. I'll link some video if I can find it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2moa4xTaK9w&feature=youtu.be

Not sure how to enbed the above but this is a video of Ken, Glen Whitlock, Jeff Elliot #163 (RIP) and myself repping the LSU purple and gold jamming after the finals at 2014 PDGA worlds in Portland.

 

[ChrisWoj]

If, AND ONLY IF, your definition of "best ever" equals something like "who had the highest rating ever," or "who played the best at a single point and time ever." By that standard, you must consider that two years before Paul hit 1046, I believe Feldberg did. So are we now saying the discussion is between Feldberg and McBeth? I think not. Not very many considered Feldberg the GOAT, even for a short period of time.

In my definition, "the best ever" includes domination in terms of winning overall, winning the biggest events, maintaining that high rating, etc. over a time. And Champ still has that. If your definition is something else then, cool, I get it. It's just not what I consider "the best ever."

"best" and "greatest" are very different. Climo is the greatest. Paul is the best.

 

[Emoney]

Idk. I feel disc golf was very niche back in the day. With how popular it is today and more of a talent/athletic influx/career, it has to be more difficult to hold the top spot in disc golf today.

That being said...Paul could possibly be the goat of my lifetime. He has 5 world titles and i dont even think he has hit his prime.

The question is how many world titles does Paul have to get to compare to 12? I dont think he has to get 12 to be the greatest ever.

Tiger is the greatest ever without having the most majors....imo

 

[ChrisWoj]

A person CAN'T with any accuracy say Ken would have still maxed at a 1042-1044 rating in today's game -- you truly do not know that. You can't say he wouldn't have stayed in that range for 6 years; heck, having seen Kenny play I believe (with my own eyes) that Champ might have been 1050+ for 10 years. But similarly, no one can say that either with any accuracy.

We can say with accuracy what he did do in his circumstances. In discussing the best - circumstances always play a role. Who would have been the greatest player in disc golf in the 1990s if the sport was big enough to absorb thousands more athletes from various backgrounds? Using your same what-if level questions, we can extrapolate from today's game that Climo would not have dominated the 1990s, just like you're extrapolating that Climo could have been better than Paul in the 2010s.

GOAT or "best ever" discussions are an exercise in both opinion and value system at best. To me (and not just in disc golf) I consider the best ever in any sport to be he/she who showed the greatest level of dominance at his game over time.

I agree with that for "GOAT" but not for "Best."

I'm not saying Paul might not one day be the best ever; I'm just saying he isn't yet. If he were as you and others might believe, then you'd have to agree that if he retired or had a career-ending injury tomorrow, you'd still consider him the GOAT.

Paul retires or gets hurt today he has no chance to be considered the GOAT. Best - sure. Not that he will be in a few generations. But right now he is.

And finally, ratings weren't even a part of disc golf until 1998; Champ had 8 World Titles by then and was already in his 30s. We LITERALLY don't know what his rating was while he was dominating from 1990-1997.

One thing's for sure... he stopped dominating the big events at nearly the same level almost as soon as he hit the age of 30. The field got right up on his ass at about that time. If Paul can stay a full step ahead of the field through his 30s - he clearly supersedes Climo as the GOAT as well as the fully realized best.

 

[ChrisWoj]

He has 5 world titles and i dont even think he has hit his prime.

I don't think I'd go that far... dude's 30 and has already had seasons impacted by the wear and tear on his body. His comeback last year was incredible, and if he can stay smart and keep on the rehab when things break down he should be able to continue ripping the competition apart for another decade. But he's DEFINITELY moving into the back half of his prime.

 

[Emoney]

Gretzky vs. Crosby

Jordan vs. James

The parameters in which these kind of assessments should be made don't overlap. It's just the transcendence of great players. There is (maybe ) always going to be someone that is one of a kind.

Imo team sports dont work in this equation. Way to many factors. We can have this discussion about paul/champ because they are (at its core) playing against the course. You know before the tournament if you shot 18 under you should win or tie and go to a playoff.

Your chances of winning are solely in your hands.

 

[Emoney]

I don't think I'd go that far... dude's 30 and has already had seasons impacted by the wear and tear on his body. His comeback last year was incredible, and if he can stay smart and keep on the rehab when things break down he should be able to continue ripping the competition apart for another decade. But he's DEFINITELY moving into the back half of his prime.

With nutrition and medical science, your 30s are your prime. Mentally (most importantly) and physically. He trains and eats clean. He will be winning open tournaments in his 40s.....(unless something serious happens)

Look at similar arm movements in other sports. Pitchers/quarterbacks/tennis. Disc golf is way less stress on the body then those