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McBeth vs. Climo

McBeth vs. Climo

  • McBeth

    Votes: 192 60.4%
  • Climo

    Votes: 126 39.6%

  • Total voters
    318
...

Now, as fun as this is, a direct question might be best, do you feel that the rating of a player from 1995 directly compares to the rating of a player in 2019? One to one?

It should. There's an unbroken chain of ratings compared to ratings to ratings, etc.

Unless there is some sort of built-in bias to deflate or inflate the value of ratings over time (in terms of the skill it takes to get a particular rating).

Which there very well could be. However, it would seem that even a small bias would obviously manifest itself over 24 years. At an accelerated rate as the "generations" of ratings recalculations (average time between events) are getting shorter. Yet, so far, I haven't seen evidence for that.

So, best guess is that they are directly comparable.
 
I vote : Climo
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It should. There's an unbroken chain of ratings compared to ratings to ratings, etc.

Unless there is some sort of built-in bias to deflate or inflate the value of ratings over time (in terms of the skill it takes to get a particular rating).

Which there very well could be. However, it would seem that even a small bias would obviously manifest itself over 24 years. At an accelerated rate as the "generations" of ratings recalculations (average time between events) are getting shorter. Yet, so far, I haven't seen evidence for that.

So, best guess is that they are directly comparable.

At last, a direct answer. Can you prove it, you know, with math?

Saying that nothing has changed doesn't make any impression on me. Over a twenty-five year period, a change of .25 rating points per year is darned subtle and yet results in a six-ratings point difference. A .1 rating point per year change results in a 2.5 rating point difference. I'm not saying this happened, I'd just want some thought on it. Now, where is Chuck when you need him?

But taking the ratings at face value and as exactly equivalent creates a problem. The discussion is solved. McBeth wins. By 2013 Paul had moved over 1046. And he pretty much stays there. Ken's highest rating ever is 1044, and he was more often in the 1030 area.

Now, some are going to say, well that doesn't matter. Being a betting man myself, I side with Vegas. They will take those differences, long-term, every time. While Ken's gonna get his wins, overall, Paul is going to leverage that advantage to more wins.
 
By the way, I understand that Paul had a six year period before he made that break, but if you take the meat of his 1046 and over period, and what is to come for Paul, and match it up to the meat of Ken's career, Ken is no longer dominant. You have a Paul Ricky type of situation and all the fun that ensues.
 
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Is it possible that McBeth's rating is higher because he's aware of and striving for a higher rating? I'm not talking a mathematical reason but a psychological one. And not just something that affects him but affects everyone. I remember a time when no one talked about ratings except in the context of a debate about divisions. No one, certainly at the pro level, was overly concerned about increasing their rating from 1002 to 1008 or 1020 to 1025. If they cared at all, it was about getting to/maintaining 1000+ for sponsorship reasons. 1010 vs 1030 wasn't that important.

Now, it seems like much more of an obsession among players of all skill levels. We've got a thread here where people can boast or commiserate about their rating rising and falling by a few points at a time, and it's got 1000s of replies. In 2004, no one really gave a **** if their rating bumped up or down a few points unless it meant they were forced up a division.

I guess what I'm getting it is does that focus on rating translate to modern players like McBeth keeping their foot on the gas a bit longer in order to garner a(nother) high rating? Where someone in Climo's era might have eased up and played safe with a 5-6+ throw lead with nine or 18 holes to play because all that mattered was being at least one throw ahead of second place. Basically playing for the rating as much or more than playing for the win (since the win comes with earning the highest rating).
 
Would McBeth be as dominate, if he had a real day job all this time in order to support playing disc golf?
 
Would McBeth be as dominate, if he had a real day job all this time in order to support playing disc golf?

Truth is that he IS dominant enough not to need a day job right now. Think about all those "athletes" in other sports making 10 to 30 million dollars a year who never worked a job for a day in their lives.
 
Truth is that he IS dominant enough not to need a day job right now. Think about all those "athletes" in other sports making 10 to 30 million dollars a year who never worked a job for a day in their lives.
So you think Climo wasn't dominant enough, and that's why he needed his day job?
 
Correct me if I'm wrong (please provide proof, not opinion),
but isn't your rating a measure of your performance against a set of "propagators", whom we believe (statistically) are performing at a consistent, measurable, statistically dependable level.
This is why the Memorial produces such high ratings for the Pros, because many lower-rated propagators perform poorly with all the wide-open, windy, long-distance, artificial and water OB-infested course.
So if your propagators are scoring better, you must perform better in relation to have a higher rating.
Your rating is a measure of your performance against the field, not against the course, correct?

As for the argument that McBeth does this full-time, as opposed to Climo...
With the number of travelling Pros and sponsorship dollars going up, McBeth is competing with many in the field that are also touring full-time or nearly full-time.
 
Would McBeth be as dominate, if he had a real day job all this time in order to support playing disc golf?

Definitely not. But what's the measure? Fantasy, or what happened. If you move Paul back, he has a day job, iflexibility you move Ken forward, whew.

Good observation.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong (please provide proof, not opinion),
but isn't your rating a measure of your performance against a set of "propagators", whom we believe (statistically) are performing at a consistent, measurable, statistically dependable level.
This is why the Memorial produces such high ratings for the Pros, because many lower-rated propagators perform poorly with all the wide-open, windy, long-distance, artificial and water OB-infested course.
So if your propagators are scoring better, you must perform better in relation to have a higher rating.
Your rating is a measure of your performance against the field, not against the course, correct?

As for the argument that McBeth does this full-time, as opposed to Climo...
With the number of travelling Pros and sponsorship dollars going up, McBeth is competing with many in the field that are also touring full-time or nearly full-time.

I do believe that the OP on this topic was saying something similar.

I'm uncomfortable saying ratings are equivalent, then and now, but I also know that actuaries are good at looking at data sets and making reasonable assessments.
 
Paul gets an infinite number of votes.

Since he chooses Climo, it's over (for today/now). But Paul's career hasn't trinkled down toward the end. SO it's not over for all-time. Give Paul time. He might get there. But he just has to sustain throughout his 30s like Champ did.
 
Paul gets an infinite number of votes.

Since he chooses Climo, it's over (for today/now). But Paul's career hasn't trinkled down toward the end. SO it's not over for all-time. Give Paul time. He might get there. But he just has to sustain throughout his 30s like Champ did.

Wait, you disn't account for false modesty. I'm not sure any player can comment on their own position in history. Nor should they.
 
Wait, you disn't account for false modesty. I'm not sure any player can comment on their own position in history. Nor should they.

Of course I account for that. Paul has no bones saying he wants to be the best ever. I don't begrudge him for that. It's great that he has that goal.

It's also great that PAUL says he must accomplish more to get there. That's not false modesty. He wants there to be no doubt he was the best ever. So he KNOWS he must do more. That's realistically understanding the situation.
 
But taking the ratings at face value and as exactly equivalent creates a problem. The discussion is solved. McBeth wins. By 2013 Paul had moved over 1046. And he pretty much stays there. Ken's highest rating ever is 1044, and he was more often in the 1030 area.

Now, some are going to say, well that doesn't matter. Being a betting man myself, I side with Vegas. They will take those differences, long-term, every time. While Ken's gonna get his wins, overall, Paul is going to leverage that advantage to more wins.

If, AND ONLY IF, your definition of "best ever" equals something like "who had the highest rating ever," or "who played the best at a single point and time ever." By that standard, you must consider that two years before Paul hit 1046, I believe Feldberg did. So are we now saying the discussion is between Feldberg and McBeth? I think not. Not very many considered Feldberg the GOAT, even for a short period of time.

In my definition, "the best ever" includes domination in terms of winning overall, winning the biggest events, maintaining that high rating, etc. over a time. And Champ still has that. If your definition is something else then, cool, I get it. It's just not what I consider "the best ever."
 
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If, AND ONLY IF, your definition of "best ever" equals something like "who had the highest rating ever," or "who played the best at a single point and time ever." By that standard, you must consider that two years before Paul hit 1046, I believe Feldberg did. So are we now saying the discussion is between Feldberg and McBeth? I think not. Not very many considered Feldberg the GOAT, even for a short period of time.

In my definition, "the best ever" includes domination in terms of winning overall, winning the biggest events, maintaining that high rating, etc. over a time. And Champ still has that. If your definition is something else then, cool, I get it. It's just not what I consider "the best ever."

That's exactly the point. I see the ratings as a measure of how well the player shoots. Long-term, a player with a 10 point rating advantage over another player will win more events, that's math. Especially, if you take it as Steve and others have presented ratings, that it is this universal number that encompasses all players and goes back to the beginning. If that assesment is correct, then we have to accept that the rating between those two players means something. I don't know that I buy that, but I'm not covering reality, only the reality that exists if we accept that ratings are universal and always cross-compatible.

The Feldberg case is interesting. David hit 1046 once. For a couple month period. He had a three-year stretch where he consistently was over 1040. I'm guessing that's when he won worlds and displaced Ken, but I've not looked. Paul has been over 1040 for the past six years, and often enough over 1050. If we take the meat of those two periods, and put them head to head, you've got some damn good golf, equivalent to the Ricky Paul competition. If you take the meat of that three year period, David is beating Ken at any period during Ken's career, if ratings match up, one to one.

You can't factor in how these players would match up, i.e. how the head to head match up would go, in terms of mental toughness. I grant that, but neither David or Ken had Ricky breathing down their necks. I think a good argument can be made that Paul had more pressure, but I've not gone player to player to see who pressured them, so I wouldn't bet on that.

As many have pointed out, it changes due to the fact that Paul gets to make this a career, David was closer to that status than Ken. How would those player's ratings have changed if they were here today? That goes back to my original question. What happens if you move players around in time?

But, the flat out assessment of who's better, based on ratings, well, Paul wins, he beats Feldberg and Climo, based on length of being at the top, and overall ratings. BTW - If you simply move Ricky into Feldberg's prime or Climo's prime, the world is a very different place. Neither looks nearly as dominant. Climo was lucky, he became dominant before the sport "took off." He couldn't do what he did back then, today. IMO, no one could.
 
What if Ken had some of today's long distance drivers? Could he shave another 2 strokes off his average round? Would he get another 50' on his drives with a Tern? Would he have crashed through the Iron Leaf with an Ape?

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The young(er) will always side with "today's player".

The old(er) will always side with "the best of their time".

The smart(er) will understand that you really can't 'compare' different eras of players (due to changes in rules, equipment, courses, formats, etc.).

The BSer will just say "Aw, I better than ALL of them!".

The wise(est) will just acknowledge that they were/are all very, very good and it really doesn't matter who was/is "best" - we're all just people throwing plastic.
 
What title/category do you give to the geniuses that are posting "historical player NBA drafts" on youtube?
 
What title/category do you give to the geniuses that are posting "historical player NBA drafts" on youtube?

^^^
Just curious, but how exactly does this have to do with McBeth vrs Climo? Seems to be wrong thread, wrong game, wrong site, etc.
 
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