JR
* Ace Member *
Another long one 
I was out for about two hours today. Snow on the ground little to no wind. Slipped and fell once trying to get power from the legs.
My releasing and throwing both are improving a bit it seems. I seem to be at a point where the Indian is finally more important than the quality of the arrow. With concentration on form I seem to be able to put almost full power or full power from the arm to the throws without the accuracy suffering terribly. Repeatability suffers a bit too much for my taste. So I'd like to keep power generation below 90 % from maximum for real accurate work.
I threw from 3' higher than where the discs landed with drives. I initially used a 3 finger power grip where the index finger was under the rim below the thumb both pinching against each other. Then the same except moving the power gripping fingers to fan under the bottom of the disc. I moved to power grip 2 later on and had remarkably no difference at all except maybe 10' more distance on average with drives.
I also putted. I've recently putted with mids. To great results. I warmed up putting. I putted both down and uphill. To about 70-80' on average. When I left I tried to see how far I could trow my Radius without pulling it back by my side. It landed at 105' I didn't try to throw high for extra distance. I used Radius putter plastic 169, Putt'r Z 17? and beat glow medium 173 Wizard in these tests with mids for putting. No great differences in sideways variations putters vs mids. I got a bit more distance out of the mids which is great for not overdoing powering to twist each body part to wrong places by trying too hard. Some mids had less sideways movement than most putter throws. QMS seemed to be the straightest with Stratus x 170-172 being a close second Followed by Radius and Putt'r. Both QMS and Stratus were mostly on a string until very very late in the flight. Maybe 5 % in the end had some fade that usually was less than 2' and often 1' or a bit under on low throws that still were aimed higher than basket height. I guestimate 6-7' apexes.
QMS outglides everything in putts and only my T-bone 163 SRP prototype comes close but it gets to slightly better distances with it's higher speeds rather than glide. Making T-Bone a lot more unforgiving to missing high and nose angle. And it fades much more on drives. This lead to on average slightly longer throws with QMS although max D was in favor of T-bone.
T-bone clearly likes more speed than I was able to generate on snow. I also used 150 champ 11x Teebird and they flew as far but the Teebird faded less. The only area where I saw that the T-bone had an advantage over other discs was that it was equally long to the other discs in putting but faded more maikng sure that blow bys aren't as harsh. I don't plan my shots that way so it's of no use to me. Considering how much lighter it is compared against my QMS as a putter it doesn't work for me. As a driver I like my Teebird 11x and 12x a lot better. Off the T-bone stays from my bag.
My Sirius Sentinel MF 180 has about two dozen throws on it before sanding the flashing off. The difference the sanding made is greater than with my Star TL. It flies straighter now than with more power from legs and hips before when the ground was grippier. Even with lesser power usage I got it to fly about the same or a little bit farther than before. It's still no Rancho Roc definitely. A windy day will show what I'll do with this disc. It can be a good disc for low throws with close to ful power where it'll give some predictability and insurance against flipping over (at least too far) over dx Ranchos and MD1s. With trying not to fall down again I got the Sentinel to 200' on average. At that point I wasn't using full arm speed because I was trying to find a suitable leg form and power for getting maximum power without slipping. My main goal was to shoot out discs and try to find out how far I could throw them on a string and with how much repeatability and limiting the sideways motion of botched attempts. This is important in the multiple tunnels around here. Because I got the info I got from the throws with the Sentinel I didn't try to throw it with full arm power. That'll be reserved for actual playing where a left turn is required in the end. This baby tolerates missing high with nose flat less than every other disc I threw today.
I finally got my gummy 179 QMS to behave with full power. This disc amazingly forgiving of throwing too high nose flat or even slight nose up. It'll punish you of OAT and I got two unintended annies with it thanks to breaking the plane of the throw on the first one and having the plant step slip and lower back arch back in the other throw. Without those I would've had a perfect sideways accuracy due to hyzer/anhyzer angle. Unfortunately my aim still produces sideways swings but I had mild slippages more than I would've liked. I'm coming to terms with my usual too loose wrist in the reach back which has caused me a lot of height variation on throws. After finding the correct height for compromised leg and hip power I was constantly throwing this disc to 270'. Even with too high throws it faded very little and extremely late when it did. In no wind conditions this is a great gap penetrator. And it can be thrown over many trees too without the fear of fading too far off the fairway. When flipping over is a killer I hesitate to give full arm power to this disc. Other discs or less than full power and no headwinds are required for my comfort. YMMV.
I'm getting another Aurora for long putts in very much lower weights. This is a great disc for running long putts even at this heavy weight. I saw some 150 QMS and 169 Aurora MS on the web. I'm having a hard time deciding which one to get or should I get 'em both. Main idea is for putts especially the long ones in low wind conditions. Secondary purpose is for short annies, getting out of trouble shots and uphill annies with a need for amazingly long left to right movements.
Discraft Stratus X 170-172 had always been too flippy for me with any kind of power. It doesn't handle any winds at full arm speed. I didn't learn the correct hyzer angle for it. Every other disc I threw with minimal hyzer to flat throws going more and more towards flat releases in the end of the session. With flat releases it turned on me about 3-4 degrees moving sideways about 10' at 200-270'. Being lighter than QMS and not taking wind as well out it goes again. This is the second glidiest mold in this test. The speed difference in favor of the T-Bone on low lines nose flat or down muddies up things though. Differences are small.
Back to Roc family. I left my 179 Rancho dx home because I wanted more familiarization with my new 171 Rancho and was going for maximum mid straight line distance. 171 dx Rancho held up the Roc flag admirably. But... It fades too much for everything else than avoiding long blow bys in putts for my style of running straight at the basket. On drives it lost a couple of feet on average to QMS and MD1s of both plastics. That's bad because the Roc is 6-9 grams lighter than the other discs. Wind beating ability is yet unproven with each of these discs with my current form and grips. MD1 SG line 177 is more LSS than 171 Rancho. D line 180 MD1 is even more LSS than the SG line. MD1s are new. When new my 179 dx Rancho was less LSS than MD1s. I didn't seem to have any trouble turning any of these over.
If the MD1s can handle winds I seem to have no need for KC or premium plastic Rocs. Unless I go for maximum distance on line drives with mids using lighter discs than 171 and there aren't sufficiently light MD1s available. When not wanting to disc up to Teebirds or longer. I don't plan on going for maximum mid distance on line drives with light QMSs. I doubt my lack of finesse and local wind conditions allow that.
The difficult thing for me for long Roc duty considerations came with the performance of my X 175-176 Storm. I've always known it to be longer than Rocs. It beats all the mids in this test for distance. It only loses a little to my QMS in high line drives with minimal and late fade but has on average 10-15' longer with the longest throw about 20' longer than any other mid. Storm is a bit picky to nose angle/power in drives. Oddly enough it was fine as a putter being halfway between the most and least LSS discs in putting. For no fade on high line drives (my longest and highest throw with under 4' of fade apexed at about 15-17'). Previously I've had Storms in Z and X plastic in same weights flip in mild winds from front quarter and medium winds form the sides.
I really do not know what to do about long mid duty yet because I want wind handling. I'm greedy so I'd like to have longer discs than my current ones. I haven't had the time to think of this through. I don't know of light MD1s because if they handle winds at my current weights they'd be perfect for long mid duty in lighter weights. FYI I don't have trouble with the sharp bottom. For windy days in the summer I can generate full power and still would like to use full power even in headwinds as an option. That may be asking too much of any of these molds in every weight. With the possible exception of a new d line 180 MD1. But that isn't long enough.
I was thinking of trying a Blaze for full power throws in winds. Experiences, do they flip and how much do they fade at different lengths and headwind/no wind? Which plastic should I get? I'm thinking of max weight for headwinds. But would a lighter one be suitable for straight max mid D lines?
I'm not sure if I'll get more Rocs. If I do they'll be lighter and for max mid distance straight lines. Understable/straight gap penetration roles are covered by Auroras (with overlap to Rocs/MD1s in straight role depending on the situation) and overstable/headwinds by Sentinel/possibly Blaze or drivers at reduced power. I'm not limiting myself with too much disc minimalism because Rocs, Auroras and MD1s feel and fly similarly enough for me to be equal in throwing form and Sentinel is familiar and close enough for no troubles. They are all Rocs to me. Rocs of different weights, versions, plastics and level of wear should make them like my set is now. Slightly overstable to understable with nice little variations between them. They are relatives anyway but for me things go beyond that. I'm really not too sensitive to disc changes now. I've had a lot of experience with different molds, plastics and weights with differences in each with some molds. My form seems to accept different discs with ease. My fingers and hands are accustomed all sorts of size and shape differences in discs. One less thing to worry about :-D So philosophically and practically speaking my current setup of 2 Ranchos, 2 MD1s and a QMS are 5 Rocs and one mold to me
To muddy up things Storm is close enough too as a mid just longer and not wind beating and requires about the same form as QMS which is slight one or two degree compensation at reduced power for hyzer to flat flip. Because it can't handle winds I want to either drop it off my bag or keep it as a specialty disc for no wind conditions. It's not like I'm going to forget how to throw it because QMS is the same for me. Only might get more aces with the added D ;-)
My Champ Leopard at reduced leg power was as long as the Roc family on average and shorter than Teebird and Storm. Way too LSS and drops too fast for putts. Too LSS for my taste with drives. Unless it gets better with more power it won't get back to bag any time soon.
I was out for about two hours today. Snow on the ground little to no wind. Slipped and fell once trying to get power from the legs.
My releasing and throwing both are improving a bit it seems. I seem to be at a point where the Indian is finally more important than the quality of the arrow. With concentration on form I seem to be able to put almost full power or full power from the arm to the throws without the accuracy suffering terribly. Repeatability suffers a bit too much for my taste. So I'd like to keep power generation below 90 % from maximum for real accurate work.
I threw from 3' higher than where the discs landed with drives. I initially used a 3 finger power grip where the index finger was under the rim below the thumb both pinching against each other. Then the same except moving the power gripping fingers to fan under the bottom of the disc. I moved to power grip 2 later on and had remarkably no difference at all except maybe 10' more distance on average with drives.
I also putted. I've recently putted with mids. To great results. I warmed up putting. I putted both down and uphill. To about 70-80' on average. When I left I tried to see how far I could trow my Radius without pulling it back by my side. It landed at 105' I didn't try to throw high for extra distance. I used Radius putter plastic 169, Putt'r Z 17? and beat glow medium 173 Wizard in these tests with mids for putting. No great differences in sideways variations putters vs mids. I got a bit more distance out of the mids which is great for not overdoing powering to twist each body part to wrong places by trying too hard. Some mids had less sideways movement than most putter throws. QMS seemed to be the straightest with Stratus x 170-172 being a close second Followed by Radius and Putt'r. Both QMS and Stratus were mostly on a string until very very late in the flight. Maybe 5 % in the end had some fade that usually was less than 2' and often 1' or a bit under on low throws that still were aimed higher than basket height. I guestimate 6-7' apexes.
QMS outglides everything in putts and only my T-bone 163 SRP prototype comes close but it gets to slightly better distances with it's higher speeds rather than glide. Making T-Bone a lot more unforgiving to missing high and nose angle. And it fades much more on drives. This lead to on average slightly longer throws with QMS although max D was in favor of T-bone.
T-bone clearly likes more speed than I was able to generate on snow. I also used 150 champ 11x Teebird and they flew as far but the Teebird faded less. The only area where I saw that the T-bone had an advantage over other discs was that it was equally long to the other discs in putting but faded more maikng sure that blow bys aren't as harsh. I don't plan my shots that way so it's of no use to me. Considering how much lighter it is compared against my QMS as a putter it doesn't work for me. As a driver I like my Teebird 11x and 12x a lot better. Off the T-bone stays from my bag.
My Sirius Sentinel MF 180 has about two dozen throws on it before sanding the flashing off. The difference the sanding made is greater than with my Star TL. It flies straighter now than with more power from legs and hips before when the ground was grippier. Even with lesser power usage I got it to fly about the same or a little bit farther than before. It's still no Rancho Roc definitely. A windy day will show what I'll do with this disc. It can be a good disc for low throws with close to ful power where it'll give some predictability and insurance against flipping over (at least too far) over dx Ranchos and MD1s. With trying not to fall down again I got the Sentinel to 200' on average. At that point I wasn't using full arm speed because I was trying to find a suitable leg form and power for getting maximum power without slipping. My main goal was to shoot out discs and try to find out how far I could throw them on a string and with how much repeatability and limiting the sideways motion of botched attempts. This is important in the multiple tunnels around here. Because I got the info I got from the throws with the Sentinel I didn't try to throw it with full arm power. That'll be reserved for actual playing where a left turn is required in the end. This baby tolerates missing high with nose flat less than every other disc I threw today.
I finally got my gummy 179 QMS to behave with full power. This disc amazingly forgiving of throwing too high nose flat or even slight nose up. It'll punish you of OAT and I got two unintended annies with it thanks to breaking the plane of the throw on the first one and having the plant step slip and lower back arch back in the other throw. Without those I would've had a perfect sideways accuracy due to hyzer/anhyzer angle. Unfortunately my aim still produces sideways swings but I had mild slippages more than I would've liked. I'm coming to terms with my usual too loose wrist in the reach back which has caused me a lot of height variation on throws. After finding the correct height for compromised leg and hip power I was constantly throwing this disc to 270'. Even with too high throws it faded very little and extremely late when it did. In no wind conditions this is a great gap penetrator. And it can be thrown over many trees too without the fear of fading too far off the fairway. When flipping over is a killer I hesitate to give full arm power to this disc. Other discs or less than full power and no headwinds are required for my comfort. YMMV.
I'm getting another Aurora for long putts in very much lower weights. This is a great disc for running long putts even at this heavy weight. I saw some 150 QMS and 169 Aurora MS on the web. I'm having a hard time deciding which one to get or should I get 'em both. Main idea is for putts especially the long ones in low wind conditions. Secondary purpose is for short annies, getting out of trouble shots and uphill annies with a need for amazingly long left to right movements.
Discraft Stratus X 170-172 had always been too flippy for me with any kind of power. It doesn't handle any winds at full arm speed. I didn't learn the correct hyzer angle for it. Every other disc I threw with minimal hyzer to flat throws going more and more towards flat releases in the end of the session. With flat releases it turned on me about 3-4 degrees moving sideways about 10' at 200-270'. Being lighter than QMS and not taking wind as well out it goes again. This is the second glidiest mold in this test. The speed difference in favor of the T-Bone on low lines nose flat or down muddies up things though. Differences are small.
Back to Roc family. I left my 179 Rancho dx home because I wanted more familiarization with my new 171 Rancho and was going for maximum mid straight line distance. 171 dx Rancho held up the Roc flag admirably. But... It fades too much for everything else than avoiding long blow bys in putts for my style of running straight at the basket. On drives it lost a couple of feet on average to QMS and MD1s of both plastics. That's bad because the Roc is 6-9 grams lighter than the other discs. Wind beating ability is yet unproven with each of these discs with my current form and grips. MD1 SG line 177 is more LSS than 171 Rancho. D line 180 MD1 is even more LSS than the SG line. MD1s are new. When new my 179 dx Rancho was less LSS than MD1s. I didn't seem to have any trouble turning any of these over.
If the MD1s can handle winds I seem to have no need for KC or premium plastic Rocs. Unless I go for maximum distance on line drives with mids using lighter discs than 171 and there aren't sufficiently light MD1s available. When not wanting to disc up to Teebirds or longer. I don't plan on going for maximum mid distance on line drives with light QMSs. I doubt my lack of finesse and local wind conditions allow that.
The difficult thing for me for long Roc duty considerations came with the performance of my X 175-176 Storm. I've always known it to be longer than Rocs. It beats all the mids in this test for distance. It only loses a little to my QMS in high line drives with minimal and late fade but has on average 10-15' longer with the longest throw about 20' longer than any other mid. Storm is a bit picky to nose angle/power in drives. Oddly enough it was fine as a putter being halfway between the most and least LSS discs in putting. For no fade on high line drives (my longest and highest throw with under 4' of fade apexed at about 15-17'). Previously I've had Storms in Z and X plastic in same weights flip in mild winds from front quarter and medium winds form the sides.
I really do not know what to do about long mid duty yet because I want wind handling. I'm greedy so I'd like to have longer discs than my current ones. I haven't had the time to think of this through. I don't know of light MD1s because if they handle winds at my current weights they'd be perfect for long mid duty in lighter weights. FYI I don't have trouble with the sharp bottom. For windy days in the summer I can generate full power and still would like to use full power even in headwinds as an option. That may be asking too much of any of these molds in every weight. With the possible exception of a new d line 180 MD1. But that isn't long enough.
I was thinking of trying a Blaze for full power throws in winds. Experiences, do they flip and how much do they fade at different lengths and headwind/no wind? Which plastic should I get? I'm thinking of max weight for headwinds. But would a lighter one be suitable for straight max mid D lines?
I'm not sure if I'll get more Rocs. If I do they'll be lighter and for max mid distance straight lines. Understable/straight gap penetration roles are covered by Auroras (with overlap to Rocs/MD1s in straight role depending on the situation) and overstable/headwinds by Sentinel/possibly Blaze or drivers at reduced power. I'm not limiting myself with too much disc minimalism because Rocs, Auroras and MD1s feel and fly similarly enough for me to be equal in throwing form and Sentinel is familiar and close enough for no troubles. They are all Rocs to me. Rocs of different weights, versions, plastics and level of wear should make them like my set is now. Slightly overstable to understable with nice little variations between them. They are relatives anyway but for me things go beyond that. I'm really not too sensitive to disc changes now. I've had a lot of experience with different molds, plastics and weights with differences in each with some molds. My form seems to accept different discs with ease. My fingers and hands are accustomed all sorts of size and shape differences in discs. One less thing to worry about :-D So philosophically and practically speaking my current setup of 2 Ranchos, 2 MD1s and a QMS are 5 Rocs and one mold to me
To muddy up things Storm is close enough too as a mid just longer and not wind beating and requires about the same form as QMS which is slight one or two degree compensation at reduced power for hyzer to flat flip. Because it can't handle winds I want to either drop it off my bag or keep it as a specialty disc for no wind conditions. It's not like I'm going to forget how to throw it because QMS is the same for me. Only might get more aces with the added D ;-)
My Champ Leopard at reduced leg power was as long as the Roc family on average and shorter than Teebird and Storm. Way too LSS and drops too fast for putts. Too LSS for my taste with drives. Unless it gets better with more power it won't get back to bag any time soon.
