[MVP] MVP Disc Sports (Official Thread) (Part V)

[ThrowaEnvy]

While I still have a half a beer and opinion..

The fireball is a Firebird.

The motion is an FL

The motion is better because it is an FL (L rim FB)

Let us never speak in innova terminology again. But it had to be said.

I think the motion has a little bigger rim and some more skip potential, but it's a freakin longer FL!

 

[Moose33]

While I still have a half a beer and opinion..

The fireball is a Firebird.

The motion is an FL

The motion is better because it is an FL (L rim FB)

Let us never speak in innova terminology again. But it had to be said.

I think the motion has a little bigger rim and some more skip potential, but it's a freakin longer FL!

You think the Fireball is More stable than the Motion? I'm not sure I agree, though the sample size is limited. I will say that I can throw either of them farther than a Firebird though.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

You think the Fireball is More stable than the Motion? I'm not sure I agree, though the sample size is limited. I will say that I can throw either of them farther than a Firebird though.

Obviously good sir you don't speak "Innova-ish" and I applaud you for that.

You are pure of heart. Yet Wrong and Right at the same time.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Hmmm I reread... yeah the fireball is mor stable.. The motion has a lower arm useabilty the FB doesn't. The fireball hold up to wind, has zero glide and takes all you put in it, much like a discus. The motion actually flies a little, hooks later and flies way further at 250 ish feet.

Most happily the motion thumb hammers like an FL... the FB is crap by comparison, unless you thumber over 200' then you like the long slow turn

 

[stupid trees]

Hmmm I reread... yeah the fireball is mor stable.. The motion has a lower arm useabilty the FB doesn't. The fireball hold up to wind, has zero glide and takes all you put in it, much like a discus. The motion actually flies a little, hooks later and flies way further at 250 ish feet.

Most happily the motion thumb hammers like an FL... the FB is crap by comparison, unless you thumber over 200' then you like the long slow turn

So the motion waits longer to fade than a fireball, but when it does fade it fades harder?

 

[zendragon]

I think it really depends on the Fireball run and the Motion run. Way back in the day, my friend bought a Motion and a Fireball out of the used bin and I threw them both. The Motion was definitely more stable of the two. I really liked the Fireball as an OS wind fighter and kept wanting to pick one up for myself. It felt more useable. I never found one I wanted/could justify getting one when I leaned so heavily on my Resistor for that slot already. Anyway, to make a long story still long, I finally picked one up from DFX a little over a year ago when they did a Medusa stamp release on them. I got a mid 160s weight. The thing is a meathook with no glide. I can still get decent distance with it because it's pretty fast, but dang, way more stable than my Resistors, or the last Fireballs I had thrown, or the last Motion I threw for that matter. So basically, I still throw Resistors and my Fireball sits on the shelf as a backup.

 

[Sheep]

While I still have a half a beer and opinion..

The fireball is a Firebird.

The motion is an FL

The motion is better because it is an FL (L rim FB)

Let us never speak in innova terminology again. But it had to be said.

I think the motion has a little bigger rim and some more skip potential, but it's a freakin longer FL!

Fireball and Motion are both 20mm on the rim.

As well, just for sake of argument.
Fireball listed as 3.5 Fade.
Motion listed as 4.

My personal testing is that the fireball is probably a 3.5 and the glide is accurate at 3.5.
However the motion does not fly like a 3.5 glide, but the 4 Fade is accurate

I can easily get more distance with a motion every time.
And being that a majority of the players I throw with have firebirds and throw them insane distances.
I cannot agree that the Fireball = Firebird.
Though, I can see the correlation for a lot of throwers with this.
Because there are some firebirds out there that are just stupid beef, and they fly like that.
But I dont 'know many people who throw those overly beefy firebirds if at all often.
And to be fair to the Fireball, a disc I dont' like, I'd rather throw that fireball than those stupid beef firebirds.

 

[Sheep]

Hmmm I reread... yeah the fireball is mor stable.. The motion has a lower arm useabilty the FB doesn't. The fireball hold up to wind, has zero glide and takes all you put in it, much like a discus. The motion actually flies a little, hooks later and flies way further at 250 ish feet.

Most happily the motion thumb hammers like an FL... the FB is crap by comparison, unless you thumber over 200' then you like the long slow turn

See, this is where disc golf terms are pure garbage.

Using "stable" for "neutralish" flight is so bad.

So when you say something like "more stable" it can easily be misconstrued as saying a disc is "more over stable" vs "more neutral" or "less overstable" or "less stable"

See all thsoe terms I just threw out there make no sense to a lot of people because the language with them is so piss poor that its confusing.

Whatever jackwagon decided that "stable" flight is straight is a moron.

And generally, a stable flight would not be "straight" Because for a disc to go straight, it has to be an unstable flight.
ala,
Neutral.

4 - Overstable.
2 - Stable
0 - Neutral
-2 - Understable
-4 - Really understable

Which even when you break that down it looks dumb.

But if you break it down with

Overstable
Stable
Understable

That makes sense right?
But what does it actually mean?

Well back in the day, is what it means.
They are outdated terms that are being forced into categories that dont accurately describe anything going on now days, we just kind of try and fit them in to the best of our ability to comprehend them, and since there is no defined set to them, its all on us to try and mind read what the other person is saying.
Which is not a good way to have a conversation about anything.

 

[discerdoo]

See, this is where disc golf terms are pure garbage.

Using "stable" for "neutralish" flight is so bad.

So when you say something like "more stable" it can easily be misconstrued as saying a disc is "more over stable" vs "more neutral" or "less overstable" or "less stable"

See all thsoe terms I just threw out there make no sense to a lot of people because the language with them is so piss poor that its confusing.

Whatever jackwagon decided that "stable" flight is straight is a moron.

And generally, a stable flight would not be "straight" Because for a disc to go straight, it has to be an unstable flight.
ala,
Neutral.

4 - Overstable.
2 - Stable
0 - Neutral
-2 - Understable
-4 - Really understable

Which even when you break that down it looks dumb.

But if you break it down with

Overstable
Stable
Understable

That makes sense right?
But what does it actually mean?

Well back in the day, is what it means.
They are outdated terms that are being forced into categories that dont accurately describe anything going on now days, we just kind of try and fit them in to the best of our ability to comprehend them, and since there is no defined set to them, its all on us to try and mind read what the other person is saying.
Which is not a good way to have a conversation about anything.

Good luck with your quest, bruh.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

I think I should drink less beer at night... the wife's been gone so I've been going a little heavy on beverages and tuna fish sandwiches.

I think the fireball is more "true stable" . The motion is more "speed stable" with a wicked hard skippy finishing hook. Yes I can get the motion further it has just a bit of glide where the fireball has none. The finishing fade/hook of the motion is much harder than the fireball.

I am not throwing them at appropriate distances, this should be mid territory but I need a utility wind fighter and occasional thumber disc.

 

[gwsmallwood]

How does the motion fit in against a fireball?

I got a 159 fireball and it might as well be a mid...

Got some throws in with the entropy, at 174 it may be more stable than a zone. My 168 ish SE is much more workable

I have a 173 Neutron Fireball and a 175 Neutron Motion, both scored in the Gyro box this year. They're so close. If anything I think the Fireball is just a tick more stable, despite the numbers, but barely worth mentioning. I'm forehand dominant and throw them around 280' on average. Twice now I've put the motion right under the basket on a 300' slightly downhill basket.

I find my Cosmic Neutron Entropy more stable than my Z or ESP Zones. Different hand feel, definitely a bit deeper than the Zone, but more reliably OS, especially if I throw them with a bit of power.

 

[lee76007]

About three months ago I picked up a Plasma Motion 165g, and a Plasma Fireball 169g wanting to fill in the distance slot between a Fission Photon 174g, and a Plasma Pyro 179g. There had been a second Plasma Fireball 174g, and my first impression was to pick it up instead, but that's not what I did, I decided to keep the Motion and Plasma weights together. As I begin practice field time with them, I came to realize they were to light for the way I throw with wind play with the Motion all over the place, and the Fireball just not doing well with distance and holding a wind line. The heavier Pyro was flying past the Fireball, and keeping up with the Motion, and more consistent with wind play or without on a line. I kept thinking go back and get that Fireball 174g but waited until after two weeks and it was gone. I ended up trading away the Motion and Fireball for a Plasma Envy and an R2 Nomad and those two discs are staying in the bag. The Plasma Pyro is my favorite disc to throw.

I've come to know in the past few months anything MVP/Axiom O/S or U/S best to have a disc at least in the 170's for my purposes, and for consistency. In the meantime, I'll be looking for a Plasma Motion or Fireball in the mid 170g's to fill the Photon/Pyro gap and dump the G-star Thunderbird 170g currently there if outperformed.

So far here's what I've found with wind play of 20-30 mph with gust up to at least 40 on four course visits and eight rounds. This is the start of my 4th season with these types of winds. Plasma's hold the wind good, I have Envy, Crave, Servo, Pyro, Insanity, Wave, and Orbital. Also, with R2 Nomad, Neutron and Fission Hex, Eclipse Reactor, Fission Tesla, and Neutron Virus, none of these discs have rolled on me. A struggle for Fission Waves my main drivers, Fission Photon, and Neutron Impulse/Wave/Orbital. The wind will be stronger for a few course visits in January thru March, I look forward to seeing how the disc hold up.

If anyone has experience in these types of wind in the 13 and 14 speeds, what works for you in MVP/Axiom? I only kept a Neutron Relativity it has a beautiful flight in lighter wind. I turned in a Plasma Octane, Neutron Excite, and a Neutron Catalyst for discs outside of MVP/Axiom. I would like to try and commit to MVP in those speeds since everything else in the lower speeds has helped my game.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

If anyone has experience in these types of wind in the 13 and 14 speeds, what works for you in MVP/Axiom? I only kept a Neutron Relativity it has a beautiful flight in lighter wind. I turned in a Plasma Octane, Neutron Excite, and a Neutron Catalyst for discs outside of MVP/Axiom. I would like to try and commit to MVP in those speeds since everything else in the lower speeds has helped my game.

Thanks for the opinion on fireball/ motion...

FWIW which ain't much, I'd be looking at the mayhem. It seems to have a more generous margin of error on an S flight. If you put too much anny on it it won't dive like an octane or catalyst. It's a more linear S if that makes sense.

It's way out of my speed range but I can tell from the way it can be "cheated" to fly right that it should be solid. I will defer to a bigger arm though

 

[zendragon]

4 - Overstable.
2 - Stable
0 - Neutral
-2 - Understable
-4 - Really understable

Which even when you break that down it looks dumb.

But if you break it down with

Overstable
Stable
Understable

That makes sense right?

Neither really make sense, but the first one is closer. You need to take both turn and fade into account for the actual stability. And honestly, the turn is more indicative than the fade for the disc's actual flight.

A 5/5/0/2 disc would be stable.

A 5/5/-2/2 disc would be understable, even though it comes back to center.

A 5/5/0/3 disc would be overstable.

A 5/5/0/1 disc would be neutral, even though it technically fades, it's not really a stable or overstable disc.

 

[Sheep]

Neither really make sense, but the first one is closer. You need to take both turn and fade into account for the actual stability. And honestly, the turn is more indicative than the fade for the disc's actual flight.

A 5/5/0/2 disc would be stable.

A 5/5/-2/2 disc would be understable, even though it comes back to center.

A 5/5/0/3 disc would be overstable.

A 5/5/0/1 disc would be neutral, even though it technically fades, it's not really a stable or overstable disc.

I don't disagree with you on this.

But the point also missed.
The whole thing is dumb on how we describe it.

Because it's eye of the beholder far to much on description.

 

[ray1970]

A 5/5/0/2 disc would be stable.

A 5/5/0/3 disc would be overstable.

While I am not going to argue your logic, I generally feel that third number (assuming its accurate) generally dictates the stability of a disc. Your two examples above are both stable in that generally they should take power well without turning. In general, I would say there aren't a lot of truly overstable discs out on the market. A Justice or a Splice I would say are overstable. Things like Teebirds and Zones are stable. Most discs with a negative turn number are understable to some degree.

 

[zendragon]

While I am not going to argue your logic, I generally feel that third number (assuming its accurate) generally dictates the stability of a disc. Your two examples above are both stable in that generally they should take power well without turning. In general, I would say there aren't a lot of truly overstable discs out on the market. A Justice or a Splice I would say are overstable. Things like Teebirds and Zones are stable. Most discs with a negative turn number are understable to some degree.

I see your point on overstable. I usually put that around the 0/3 mark, but it could be argued more towards 0/4. Discs like the Resistor are consisdered overstable and are 0/3.5. I guess I just round down instead of up in those situations.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Yeah when people ask about the most stable envy... I always ask if it's turn resistance (HSS) or fade (LSS) that they are looking for.

I can see why people would call the FB/Motion debate two different ways, for me it's the ability to extend the flight (third #) that's most relevant but I gotta say that hard fading skip is also something I want out of that slot.

 

[zendragon]

I don't disagree with you on this.

But the point also missed.
The whole thing is dumb on how we describe it.

Because it's eye of the beholder far to much on description.

I think there is a need for consistency in describing it, but I don't think it's dumb. I see it kind of like disc speed For the most part, both flight numbers, and disc speed has been set as arbitrary numbers by the manufacturers.

In general, most manufacturers have agreed to make the flight numbers for speed based on rim width, and, in general, set putters, mids, fairways, and distance drivers at certain speed ranges (1-3, 4-5, 6-8, 9+ respectively). It's when the manufacturers go off of these numbers, or some stupid pro calls a 9 speed a fairway instead of a distance driver, that throws everyone off. New people to the sport might hear that pro call a 9 speed a fairway, and suddenly a new trend emerges, when said pro's own company still calls all 9 speeds distance drivers.

At the same token for the most part, we all pretty much know what a disc is going to fly like when we see numbers 9/5/0/1 on a disc. Most manufacturers probably call that a neutral distance driver. Then there's that one really stupid manufacturer that calls it a neutral fairway driver, but pretty much none of them are going to call it understable or overstable.

The problem is, much like with the confusion with 9 speeds, when a disc is in that neutral range, some manufacturers might consider that "stable", while some consider it "neutral". All the other sides are pretty well agreed on. We just need the manufacturers to clearly set the tone, like they for the most part did with speed. (except for the 1-2 manufacturers who have bucked the trend for speed and should be boycotted until they shape up).

 

[ray1970]

I like to lump things into five categories.

Putters
Midranges
Fairway drivers
Control drivers
Distance drivers

There are obviously discs that kind of overlap categories.

Back in the day I would say those 9 and 10 speed discs were definitely distance drivers but when they started coming out with the really wide rimmed stuff I think those became the new distance drivers effectively creating a control driver spot for all of the 9 and 10 speed stuff.