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You were throwing so that tends to happen on the tee and many times people throw toward the basket. With a rhbh throw that leaves the right side of the tee behind their back. So you have the disc too far on the side of your back for a straight line pull. Like a mini 360 which extends the reach back distance which in the thesis of Carlsen was the only positive result correlating with the exit speed of the disc with a 95 % confidence level.
I meant where Will has his knees in that picture not what happens afterward. I suspect one of two things with Will's form. Either he's moving too fast for the left leg to push forward faster or he doesn't push due to not realizing the need or that he ain't performing the push despite thinking so. Or in that throw he is taking some power off. So a form flaw after that picture or intentional distance control. The real point of the knees is that in the picture he is in a good stance to rotate powerfully should he need to put top power into the effort. So it is not a useless thing to emulate.
You were throwing so that tends to happen on the tee and many times people throw toward the basket. With a rhbh throw that leaves the right side of the tee behind their back. So you have the disc too far on the side of your back for a straight line pull. Like a mini 360 which extends the reach back distance which in the thesis of Carlsen was the only positive result correlating with the exit speed of the disc with a 95 % confidence level.
So... "right side as you're looking down the hole." Got it. And I know the disc was too far that way. Hence the comment a few posts back about swinging the disc out around my chest instead of pulling it on a straighter line.
JR said:
I meant where Will has his knees in that picture not what happens afterward. I suspect one of two things with Will's form. Either he's moving too fast for the left leg to push forward faster or he doesn't push due to not realizing the need or that he ain't performing the push despite thinking so. Or in that throw he is taking some power off. So a form flaw after that picture or intentional distance control. The real point of the knees is that in the picture he is in a good stance to rotate powerfully should he need to put top power into the effort. So it is not a useless thing to emulate.
Well who knows? The frames are from his recent YouTube video. He seemed to be going pretty full-throttle in them, but I guess he might be powering down.
I'll note the knee position. I think it'll clean up with cleaner shoulder tilts, though, so I'm going to mess around with that first and see where it gets me.
Thank you for the help. Always greatly appreciated.
Well, I played a round today (didn't want to bother the pal I played with to film anything), but I threw some nice shots. Got reasonable distance too. At this point I'm pretty happy with any drive over 300', and I threw several of those today. I threw a nice Axis on a 250' hole with a tree just in front of the tee. Just over the right side of the tree, stood up, coasted out, and then faded downhill hard. Left me about a 25' putt on a tricky green with a pin set on top of a big slope that falls away to three sides.
I think I knew my form was improved because I had to try to throw a lot of shots with the wing down or else they'd just turn and never flex back. An Avenger SS thrown pretty flat would turn like crazy, for example, and I threw a Nuke SS on the 18th after I'd thrown my drive (with the AvSS actually) on a slight hyzer angle and it stood up and turned right too. I hit my lines most of the day as well - perhaps the biggest problem I had today was that on a few uphill shots I didn't throw them up enough - I threw flat and it'd rob me of the distance I should have gotten throwing along the slope more. Those shots aren't 100% comfortable yet - I feel like I'm just going to throw them nose up and the disc will just fade weakly. If I throw them like the Axis I threw on #12 I can do it - that's an upward trajectory that's still a nose-down throw.
I didn't concentrate on my shoulder pitch like I said I would - it was too much when playing. That's probably why I released some too flat today so they'd "stand up" and then actually begin turning. But it really wasn't that bad. I parked a few holes from 300' or so throwing some mid-range stuff, and like I said I hit my lines all day.
Here's video of my friend Richard absolutely stinking. My wife is better than this, frankly. He kept not rotating his shoulders back much and so to compensate he'd bend his elbow and get it inside the line quite a bit. Weak fades all day, and some nose-up garbage on holes 12-16 or so. He made some good throws through holes 6-11 though.
I teach this guy in golf, and... well, his golf swing is much better, but that's almost a guarantee.
I've gotten to roughly page five or six of the "maxing out at 300'" thread and I must say I feel like the stuff I've read in the first few pages there has been VERY helpful. I had throws today of 365' or so (laser confirmed, slightly downhill, cross-wind, but you've gotta throw it under a tree just off the tee so you never get to really air it out anyway) and then one that went over 400' but I'm not claiming that one because it was downhill for a bit. I'm pretty happy to have thrown that Axis 250' on that one hole, too. Great line. I thought it might bang the chains for a second or two, and Richard said "get in!" so it wasn't just me. (It's the second one in the video, actually, not that you can see the basket...)
Anyway, the thread's been helpful because I liked the "body in a cast" idea, where you spin your hips for the first part of the throw (after reach-back) and then you "chop" along with letting the arm raise up a bit on its own. My throws today felt much more effortless than they have in the past - my arm wasn't stuck against my chest as I pivoted, I wasn't consciously trying to throw my arm, etc.
In golf we see people who don't turn their shoulders back much compensating by lifting their arms and bending their elbows to "finish" the backswing. Richard does this in his disc golf motion, so I was conscious of keeping that angle between my shoulders and my upper arm, and really turning so my back was to the target and reaching back on a good line. I did this (to a lesser extent) even on 100'-150' approach shots and they too felt effortlessly powerful and were much, MUCH easier to control the lines - the disc just came out basically where I'd pointed my feet.
So I think I made some good strides today. Don't get me wrong, I know I still stink, but I feel like today was proof or validation of some things. I hit my lines and had (for me, right now) effortless power all day today, and so I don't think it was just luck and "good timing" in terms of releasing the disc to hit my lines - I feel like my motion today was improved quite a bit over the old videos.
On the 365' hole where you have to throw under a tree just off the tee, I told Richard I'd put it to 40 feet basket-high right a few weeks ago, and today I threw a nice shot that turned and then faded just a few feet in each direction to 20' left of the basket. Of course then I chickened out on the putt and clanked it off the basket. D'oh!
Anyway, again, thank you thank you thank you to everyone here for the help. I'll be shooting video soon again and hope that the changes I've felt are at least showing up in the video, because if not, then I may just go crazy because today felt NOTHING like previous rounds.
I appreciate you all, and all the help you've given. Thank you, JR, seabas22, Blake, and others.
Congratulations! That is a good distance increase in such a short time. It doesn't come naturally to all from the longer reach back because balance and strength issue may hamper proper execution robbing brain boy commanding automatically to not move down so your throw could get overtaken by the subconscience. It sounds that you have at least decent leg and core muscle power with enough body control to not spaz out each time turning the back toward the target. That phase can last for months for some when first trying to turn the back toward the target.
The body cast includes the arms as loose strings being automatically whipped around by the body movement. The bad thing is what Richard did because the arm movement is rounding. He is not leading with the elbow. The pause is for actively moving the arm forward with the right shoulder socket as the center of the rotation. When you exit the pause by turning the second 90 degree phase with the body and the disc at the right side the automated arm swing will keep the disc on the line if the legs, hips and shoulders move at the right time and in the correct order. The elbow has to straighten at the proper time to avoid late rounding too because it is the only way a disc move on a straight line when the rest of the lower body is turning right. The elbow chop has to be active muscle assisted for best acceleration and power. Richard doesn't seem to use any arm muscle power to straighten the arm. He should be accelerating in the end of the throw. Loose arm muscles make the late acceleration more explosive.
I met two gold instructors who also play disc golf here last summer. Cool that there are more. Was it Bubba Watson who said he only really learned to play golf after playing disc golf and learning course management on this side of the coin? Applying what he realized here to golf. I hear he's respected for his tight course management and placement skills in golf.
Congratulations! That is a good distance increase in such a short time. It doesn't come naturally to all from the longer reach back because balance and strength issue may hamper proper execution robbing brain boy commanding automatically to not move down so your throw could get overtaken by the subconscience. It sounds that you have at least decent leg and core muscle power with enough body control to not spaz out each time turning the back toward the target. That phase can last for months for some when first trying to turn the back toward the target.
Thanks. I'm quite pleased. Still a long way to go, but I always like noting when actual "steps" are taken where a skill is noticeably bumped rather than gradually improving over weeks or months or years. They're exciting (and few and far between). I'm in it for the long haul, but now perhaps a little ahead of schedule. Not having a bunch of bad habits is probably helping me right now.
JR said:
The body cast includes the arms as loose strings being automatically whipped around by the body movement. The bad thing is what Richard did because the arm movement is rounding. He is not leading with the elbow. The pause is for actively moving the arm forward with the right shoulder socket as the center of the rotation. When you exit the pause by turning the second 90 degree phase with the body and the disc at the right side the automated arm swing will keep the disc on the line if the legs, hips and shoulders move at the right time and in the correct order. The elbow has to straighten at the proper time to avoid late rounding too because it is the only way a disc move on a straight line when the rest of the lower body is turning right. The elbow chop has to be active muscle assisted for best acceleration and power. Richard doesn't seem to use any arm muscle power to straighten the arm. He should be accelerating in the end of the throw. Loose arm muscles make the late acceleration more explosive.
Yeah, it was interesting watching him. He kept putting the disc well inside the line with a bent arm early, largely because he wouldn't trust that he could turn back enough, then he'd straighten the elbow and rotate around his body. Like an even worse version of my first throws.
JR said:
I met two golf instructors who also play disc golf here last summer. Cool that there are more. Was it Bubba Watson who said he only really learned to play golf after playing disc golf and learning course management on this side of the coin? Applying what he realized here to golf. I hear he's respected for his tight course management and placement skills in golf.
He's a PDGA member, but I believe he learned disc golf after learning about golf. And course management isn't one of Bubba's strengths at all. He loves to curve the golf ball (in an era when most PGA Tour pros play very little curve), but that's about it. He has said he learned to play a lot of curve on the golf ball hitting whiffle golf balls around his house as a kid, curving it wildly to play "par fours" from his front yard to his back yard or whatever.
That video was shot two days or so after my reasonably good round. During the good round I focused on getting a good (proper) grip on the disc prior to release, getting a good reach-back with my chest (shoulders) turning 180° away from the target at reach-back, and letting the hips and shoulders pull my arm across my chest and fling the disc WITHOUT letting my upper arm get too close to my chest (the "arm in a cast" thing from the "maxing at 300'" thread). As I said my accuracy improved and I'd added a little distance that felt "easy".
Yesterday I had a worse round at Knob Hill. I believe I started to think about too many things, and got away from the core idea that had worked so well a few days before. That's the problem with recording video and then playing quickly - you tend to see too many things you want to work on. The course - and I feel stupid since I know this from golf - is not the place to have more than one or two simple "swing thoughts."
Anyway, my notes on the video...
I first want to start off by saying that I think I can see improvements here, and while I'm excited that they seem visible to me, I do realize there's still a long way yet to go.
Face-On View
Camera angle here was sitting on a small GorillaPod resting on top of my Grip bag. So about two and a half feet off the ground and maybe 15 feet away.
00:00 - 00:20 - Pre-shot routine trying to get my shoulders down a bit. I succeed AND fail at this in the actual throw. Also trying to work on what I might call a two-phase throw from reach-back: spin the hips to pull the elbow in and the disc to my pec area, then elbow chop. The chop doesn't feel particularly active, but it's not entirely passive either. The pre-shots are about all I was thinking during my good round, and maybe not even the shoulder tilt part...
00:20 - 00:30 - Just the 120 FPS view of the throw at 30 FPS speed.
00:43 - Right shoulder lower than left. That's nice to see. It's not even distorted with the camera angle because a higher camera angle would make this look even more so (right below left).
00:48 - Step is probably still too wide. Probably not WAY too wide, but I believe it's too wide. How much should I shorten it by? Six inches? A foot? My spine tilts away but I have good tilts, my right elbow isn't very bent, my wrist seems to be in a good position, my shoulders are turned 90°.
1:00 - I don't like that my wrist tends to tilt the disc in this position BUT I'm not sure how much I should worry about it. It seems to happen to a lot of players, and some top pros do this more than I do it here. Is worrying about this position fairly pointless? To other points, my upper arm has gotten a little closer to my chest than I'd like in this picture, though it's tough to see how close.
1:07 - Alignments look cleaner to me from here. Upper arm 90° or perhaps a bit more here to the shoulders, disc in a reasonably decent position. Shoulder tilts are back to being up again slightly (is that a worry right now? down the road?). Plant foot at 90°. Disc around the left pec, hand on the outside still...
1:16 - Shoulders nowhere near as far open as they were before. This looks to be pretty decent position so far as I can tell. Disc is on a slight hyzer release so it can stand up, doesn't have a LOT of wobble.
1:22 - 1:40 - I believe I'm still pushing off with my left foot slightly, and my right plant foot seems to pivot pretty well in this throw.
1:46 - 2:02 - Just dragging through the throw once more.
Down the Line View
The camera was about 20 feet behind where I let go of the disc and was sitting only about six inches off the ground, angled upwards enough to catch me.
2:09 - 2:33 - Practice motion focusing on the same things: shoulder tilts, spin to get to the pec area, then let the chop happen.
2:33 - 2:56 - Two throws. I like the first more than the second.
3:05 - Better shoulder tilts.
3:11 - 3:30 - Disc appears to travel in a fairly straight line. Camera angles can really mess with this perception though so I'm not forming any real hypotheses from this except to say that this appears a little better than my first videos.
3:57 - 4:06 - Again the little wrist motion that changes the orientation of the disc's angle. Should I worry much about that? Worrying about it right now seems to really mess things up, and as I said above, a lot of people seem to have a little move in here, so maybe it's nothing to worry about.
After I shot the video, I threw some lower-speed (full "throwing motion" but 50% speed or so, to "practice" a little) throws. The disc was wobbling a bit and stupidly I sought to correct it. I noticed that when I naturally grip the disc my wrist isn't as far into ulnar deviation (wrist uncocked) as is required to put the disc on an angle that matches my forearm, so I spent some time doing that and it seemed to clean up... BUT that's a stupid thing to do because video shows I do "okay" with this without having to think about it a whole lot, and if I want to change the disc's angle (hyzer and anhyzer) I really have to worry more about shoulder tilts to control the arm angle.
I was thinking about this (to the exclusion of just turning my back to the target during reach-back) during my last round and I think that's what causes a lot of my problems. I probably reverted somewhat to a less-turned reach-back and thus bent the elbow a bit to "finish my backswing" and thus had a little difficulty.
So, what do you think? What should I work on next? Do I continue to work on shoulder tilts and shortening my last step a little (so long as I maintain the improved reach-back position)? Or is there something else?
I'm too tired for a full reply so i'll get back to that later. I'd shorten the plant step between 6-10" at that speed. At a slower speed more and full speed not at all. The thing to watch for is the right hip mobility in the joint that connects the leg to the hip. If you ever come against the movement range of that joint the plant step length needs to change. Shorter for slower speeds. See at about 3:40 you are flat footed with the right leg. Ouch time look at the way the ankle has twisted. That needs to go away.
I can confirm that thinking too much and of too many things ruins the execution of the throw in disc golf too. I preach a samurai trick of not having anything in your mind as a routine for a throw on the course. That is the ideal but after messing up you do need to change what you did wrong so you need to add safety measure against repeating the previous mistake. You can't let your form deteriorate or it can change to a poorer one for good. Practice and changing form is different at times. You need to practice like you compete too but not paying attention to what you do won't help in changing form either and will no teach you about detecting what you did wrong. Flow has you in a care free non thinking execution mode. That is what you should train for but before getting there you need to get a good form so the changes are mandatory and during the change period you must compromise. Worrying and thinking will mostly add sources of mental errors that lead to execution errors. That is why one needs to have ice in the veins and train for automation and an empty head. After you've set up for the shot, line shaping, disc selection and power level adjustments and aiming points with wind correction done the last with the most current available observations for the best possible chance of reading the wind right. Just my experience but i've read similar experiences from others. I have no concrete data on how many people do this and how well it works for them. For those to whom it works it is nice indeed. Too bad i'm in the flow state mostly during playing quickly alone or with one guy in the same group. I cool down physically very quickly. Maybe mind wise almost as fast too who knows?
I'm too tired for a full reply so i'll get back to that later. I'd shorten the plant step between 6-10" at that speed. At a slower speed more and full speed not at all.
I'm not sure what you mean. This is a full-speed throw. It's just 120 FPS playing at 30 FPS. So don't shorten it? It's short enough now? I was throwing these into a pretty good headwind about 285'. Downwind I was matching that distance with no stepping. No wind they'd have gone 310' to 315' or so. They're the 2012 Ace Race discs, too. The DTL ones are, anyway. The face-on video is a QJLS.
JR said:
The thing to watch for is the right hip mobility in the joint that connects the leg to the hip. If you ever come against the movement range of that joint the plant step length needs to change. Shorter for slower speeds. See at about 3:40 you are flat footed with the right leg. Ouch time look at the way the ankle has twisted. That needs to go away.
Again, I am not entirely sure you're right about "ouch time" there. I've played golf and have almost 90° of flexibility there. I turn against my ankles even more in my golf swing and hit a few thousand balls a week and run 20 miles a week, and ice skate (hockey), and have never had ankle or knee issues.
That's not to say of course that they can't develop, and it's something I will definitely watch for, but you'll note in the face-on video that I did rotate through. I will definitely keep an eye on that, but I just don't know that I'd prioritize it quite as high as you seem to want to. I understand I know very little about this, but I can't help but play devil's advocate a little bit on this one.
JR said:
I can confirm that thinking too much and of too many things ruins the execution of the throw in disc golf too. I preach a samurai trick of not having anything in your mind as a routine for a throw on the course. That is the ideal but after messing up you do need to change what you did wrong so you need to add safety measure against repeating the previous mistake. You can't let your form deteriorate or it can change to a poorer one for good. Practice and changing form is different at times. You need to practice like you compete too but not paying attention to what you do won't help in changing form either and will no teach you about detecting what you did wrong. Flow has you in a care free non thinking execution mode.
Yes, I agree with all of that. I'm one of the best practicers around when it comes to golf, and even then there are several ways of practicing, but I'd agree that they tend to fall into the two groups you mentioned: practicing to change a pattern of motion, and practicing to ingrain that pattern or find a good "thought" or "feel" to actually succeed at playing. Very different practice motions.
Very interested in hearing more about what I can change in my pattern, as I think I still have a LONG way to go to have even a "good" throwing motion.
The most urgent thing is to get a proper heel pivot each time. It only takes one missed pivot to injure you seriously possibly out of this sport. Maybe others too. You are risking your health seriously here. You did not have any run up steps so you lacked a base speed to the throw and adding that is murder on the body if the whole sole is on the ground. There movement range of the ankle does not help because the momentum is enough to twist the ankle beyond the range of flexibility and then some into tearing soft tissue possible breaking bones too. I don't which DGR member is an EMT and in places he says they can almost always tell the injury and the cause based on the location. New sneakers with great traction on a disc golf course with a flat sole plant and the shoe sticking to place with the body twisting the ankle to pieces. Make no mistake this is very different to golf and way way way more dangerous. I'm not kidding people hurt themselves this way all the time. And i have very limber body in most places and on too flat footed throws i've had pain in the ankle. Even before i got injured in a non DG accident. And i have a sports background so my body isn't totally unconditioned even if it is creaky now.
None of the sports you practice have anything as stressful as a heel pivot unless you lock ankles or skates with an oncoming skater. It is difficult to gauge the real speed of you x step from the video but to me it didn't seem as rapid as it could be. That is why i'm thinking it is not a fast throw. You need to be ferret quick to x step anything close to the speed of run up plus the x step. In my books those throws were slow enough to warrant a shorter plant step. And i'd start with taking at least 6" off and wouldn't wonder if 10" wouldn't help even more. A foot might be so short a step that the leg to hip socket movement range may come to play. Whenever any joint reaches the limit of mobility your consistency is dropped. Most likely the accuracy of that throw too.
Edit go to Innova's web site and see how for steep hyzers it is possible to roll from one side of the shoe to the other (no joy for flat shots for consistency) because you can jump up in the follow through to avoid breaking your leg. The video is the world distance record from David Wiggins junior. FH things are easier with jumping after a flat throw watch Tali Open 2010 finals for Ville Piippo for example. You hop or twist the ankle. That is risky.
The pre throw routine and the first throw have the left leg too far toward your back AKA if you were on a tee too close to the right side of the tee. In the beginning and at the x step. The left leg is so far to the right that it limits the distance the left leg can push back to front.
At 48 seconds your head looks to what would be the left side of the tee instead of back. That seriously limits how far back you can reach. You'll gain several inches of reach back distance pointing the nose 180 degrees away from the target. If you can remain balanced, well timed and have enough brain guidance power to accelerate hard with the muscles.
For the 1 minute part have you seen the two Discraft long distance throwing videos? Marty Peters shows wrist tips. The videos are on their website and their Youtube channel sportdisc. That disc hyzer orientation is good for hyzers not for consistent flat or annied throws. For ultimate power generation moving up from almost vertical hyzer to flat or anny whatever you desire will add to the power of the wrist snap. It might also require more grip power to hold onto the disc.
1:07 the left leg is almost perfectly straight at the knee so it can't push forward more. And the latter part of the throw is more critical so you lost the largest power source. That speed is not top pro level in the back to front movement of the whole body so the stride length should be such that the right ankle, right knee and right arm pit are equidistant from the target. For a run up quicker x step throw the stride has to be longer and the stride you had here would be good because unlike now the momentum you have will get you forward enough at the rip. Now you are about 5-7" weight back from optimum. Which is upright. Think of ice skaters doing a pirouette. Tilt that and even if you could maintain the best rotation speed while you are tilted you shall lose balance at least when the rotation speed goes down. Like moving at 1 MPH with a bike shows. The shoulder angle here relates directly to being weight back and much would improve with getting a shorter stride and weight upright=forward from this position. You don't twist the hips much from here on because the major driver of that motion the left leg is on vacation having spent the power potential that is a bent knee. The remedy is to bend the knees lower on each step.
1:16 the left toe might be off enough of the ground that you might not be able to counter the elbow chop counter force. Flat footed. The hips have engaged with the core muscles which is a huge thumbs up! I might be wrong but the shoulders seem to be along for the ride not having turned any farther to the right than the hips. You are leaning to the left of the imaginary tee from the hips up and that also influences the shoulder angle. So again a more upright posture would help.
1:22-1:40 the right ball of the foot is up enough for flat tees but not good enough for going over roots and pine cones etc.
The next throw has the tilts, rounding a little and where is the follow through step? That robs power and control when it is missing.
The stride length and reaching back more with more bent knees with the most important thing adding a follow through step of the left leg makes a world of difference. The follow through step is great for soft stand stills too. I suggest highly that you look at how smooth Jussi Meresmaa is with stand stills and how far he sits back in the rach back and how far forward he gets after the disc has left and how smooth he is in between. Smooth is great. For example Youtube channel lcgm8 Finnish Open 2010 has two rounds with Jussi.
Currently I'm only doing the two-step deal because it seems to have helped. I figured I'd work on my form doing a two-step (the x-step and then the right foot step) approach rather than a longer one because it'd be easier to work on my form and then later add some run-up if needed. In your opinion, should I be doing four step run-ups or something? How much distance am I possibly costing myself?
JR said:
The pre throw routine and the first throw have the left leg too far toward your back AKA if you were on a tee too close to the right side of the tee. In the beginning and at the x step. The left leg is so far to the right that it limits the distance the left leg can push back to front.
I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean here. Are you just saying that my feet are pointing a little to the left when I release the disc? Obviously my X-Step is going to put the left foot farther "right" on the tee than the right foot, you're saying I should just plant that foot farther to the right side of the tee pad?
JR said:
At 48 seconds your head looks to what would be the left side of the tee instead of back. That seriously limits how far back you can reach. You'll gain several inches of reach back distance pointing the nose 180 degrees away from the target.
The only way I would gain more distance in my reach back here would be to turn my shoulders more. Should I be trying to turn my shoulders more? Obviously (as in the golf swing) allowing my head to rotate will free up the shoulders to rotate a bit more. Is that what you're suggesting? To allow my shoulders to turn more by letting my head turn a little more?
JR said:
For the 1 minute part have you seen the two Discraft long distance throwing videos? Marty Peters shows wrist tips. The videos are on their website and their Youtube channel sportdisc. That disc hyzer orientation is good for hyzers not for consistent flat or annied throws. For ultimate power generation moving up from almost vertical hyzer to flat or anny whatever you desire will add to the power of the wrist snap. It might also require more grip power to hold onto the disc.
I haven't seen those videos, and I'm not entirely sure what you mean because if I release on a slight hyzer angle the discs seem to stand up a little, possibly even turn, then fade out at the end. If I release them flat they have the danger of turning too much or even holding that turn to the ground and then catching an edge and rolling. Probably OAT in there, but I try to release everything with the down just a little.
I think you're possibly throwing too much at me, so I'm going to respond to the rest, but I'm just going to work on some footwork first, possibly, since you said that's most important.
JR said:
1:07 the left leg is almost perfectly straight at the knee so it can't push forward more.
I'm still not convinced of the trail leg actually pushing. It doesn't do it in the golf swing either, even though it might look like it does, and I've seen hundreds of videos where pros are clearly not pushing off with their trail leg because it's in the air or something, and that's before they even get the disc to their pec area.
JR said:
And the latter part of the throw is more critical so you lost the largest power source. That speed is not top pro level in the back to front movement of the whole body so the stride length should be such that the right ankle, right knee and right arm pit are equidistant from the target. For a run up quicker x step throw the stride has to be longer and the stride you had here would be good because unlike now the momentum you have will get you forward enough at the rip. Now you are about 5-7" weight back from optimum. Which is upright. Think of ice skaters doing a pirouette. Tilt that and even if you could maintain the best rotation speed while you are tilted you shall lose balance at least when the rotation speed goes down. Like moving at 1 MPH with a bike shows. The shoulder angle here relates directly to being weight back and much would improve with getting a shorter stride and weight upright=forward from this position. You don't twist the hips much from here on because the major driver of that motion the left leg is on vacation having spent the power potential that is a bent knee. The remedy is to bend the knees lower on each step.
Bent knees resist rotation in the golf swing, so what you're saying sounds at odds to me. In the golf swing you push your hips forward (almost no contribution from the trail leg), and the rate of your hip rotation really kicks up when you begin straightening the lead knee.
JR said:
1:16 the left toe might be off enough of the ground that you might not be able to counter the elbow chop counter force. Flat footed. The hips have engaged with the core muscles which is a huge thumbs up! I might be wrong but the shoulders seem to be along for the ride not having turned any farther to the right than the hips.
Because I was trying not to turn the shoulders and to get my arm to get across my chest more! Remember?
JR said:
You are leaning to the left of the imaginary tee from the hips up and that also influences the shoulder angle. So again a more upright posture would help.
I appreciate the help, but this is too much and I don't even necessarily understand all of it. I can't work on six or even three things at once. So I'm going to boil this down, re-read it a few times so perhaps I can understand more of it, and find one thing to work on at a time.
Thank you.
My current plan is to film three videos at regular speed (perhaps throwing a few discs each time) and send them to Blake. I'll post here with updates on that. You've done a lot to help, JR, but I'm not sure this method will work for me. I find myself getting frustrated because it feels like I have a laundry list of things to work on. That's probably me misunderstanding what you're saying, but if I feel I have to work on even three things at once, it's too much and not how I improve best.
Thanks.
I'll try to record myself tomorrow, probably indoors, and get Blake some cash to begin my lessons.
Still the heel pivot is the top priority with form. The second thing is to not try everything at once you're spot on in there. The third thing is to wait until you add a run up that can be a lot of steps up to 10 although that is rarely needed for anything else than for getting to better shape and wearing you down. When you eventually clean up your form to handle a fast run up you can gain over 10 % distance above the x step.
There is a more important thing to get right than form. You have to have keep at training and learning arming yourself with correct information. You are correct in that you do have form issues to work on and not everything can be corrected immediately. It is the same for everyone. I'm happy to word my explanations differently to allow you to get correct information. Think of this as stepping into the shoes of your golf students and gaining their perspective of confusion and whatnot. Maybe you'll become a better coach. I've heard it said that the best teachers in anything are those that keep on learning for themselves.
You are absolutely correct about needing to turn the shoulders more to reach back farther and it is the head that is in the way of the shoulder movement. That is why the head too needs to turn to face back.
At the moment the left leg is too far right vs where the right leg plants. You made it more difficult to get out of the way of your throw. The real compensation is to move the right leg at least 6 probably 10-12" to the right. The left leg needs to push primarily back to front. That is the core form but there are advanced forms where the back to front direction of movement is not the only one. See my signature.
You are not hitting a ball so you can't bend forward from the hips for a flat throw. Which is the most useful skill because it is the most difficult to master and illustrates form errors and improvement areas the best. So keep the spine upright across all axes. There are discs that released flat won't turn over. It is a matter of finding a good match for your power and form.
A disc golf throw arm movement goes horizontal rather than almost vertically as it does in golf so not all things carry over. There are two ways of countering the back force of the elbow chop. One is the Feldy kick and the other is to keep the rear leg on the ground. Too may are in between not achieving the goal of countering the elbow chop back force. At the moment you do neither version to the max. Think of a weight shift. Which is more powerful way using only momentum of the steps with straight knees or using the momentum and adding to that the back to front push of the left leg from a bent knee to a straight knee? Rotation to the right is faster if the left leg pushes forward and the right leg pushes back. Try it without throwing to see the difference. With a left leg on the ground at the hit you want the right knee to be fairly straight after pushing back but not totally straight and the left knee should be even straighter after coming from a deep push. Again Jussi Meresmaa shows well how much power and control you get from a steeply bent left knee pushed to straight. It is a killer tip for putting power increase, accuracy and consistency too. Another great knee benders is Jalle Stoor and Miko Fyhr bends almost as much. You can see both of those guys in our videos and they too are or have been over 1000 rated. A friend of Jalle Nils Iso-Markku plays in the final round of Siltamäki Open 2012 and bends almost as far down as Jalle for great results shooting -11 for 18 holes in rain and wind one off the course record made without the rain. The video is on lcgm8 channel. Note that properly using the knees in unison does not change the head height so your key is not compromised
The short version is that in disc golf bent knees help the rotation, safeguard against injuries, add force to weight shift and body rotation and makes you a class or two better putter. So in knees bending or not golf and disc golf are total opposites.
Still the heel pivot is the top priority with form. The second thing is to not try everything at once you're spot on in there. The third thing is to wait until you add a run up that can be a lot of steps up to 10 although that is rarely needed for anything else than for getting to better shape and wearing you down. When you eventually clean up your form to handle a fast run up you can gain over 10 % distance above the x step.
Okay, so for now perhaps I'll work on that and will not worry about running up.
I'm not a fan of tooting our horns, but we're great golf instructors in large part because we have great information AND we're great communicators with our students. We're good at quickly feeling out their level of understanding and catering to it. So I agree with you that communication is important. Part of what slightly confuses me about some of the things you write is simply because I have an odd mixture of pretty good biomechanical knowledge, good physics and science knowledge, but little in the way of "disc golf specific" knowledge like where my hips should be at some point in the throw, or what angle my shoulders should be at during the hit (or where the hit would be if I didn't stink), etc.
But no worries. I'm getting there (in my understanding). Slowly but surely.
JR said:
At the moment the left leg is too far right vs where the right leg plants. You made it more difficult to get out of the way of your throw. The real compensation is to move the right leg at least 6 probably 10-12" to the right. The left leg needs to push primarily back to front. That is the core form but there are advanced forms where the back to front direction of movement is not the only one. See my signature.
I've seen your signature, yes. I continue to disagree that the left leg pushes quite as much as you like to prescribe.
JR said:
You are not hitting a ball so you can't bend forward from the hips for a flat throw. Which is the most useful skill because it is the most difficult to master and illustrates form errors and improvement areas the best. So keep the spine upright across all axes. There are discs that released flat won't turn over. It is a matter of finding a good match for your power and form.
I don't know about that. A quick perusal of pros throwing fairly flat (not big hyzers or anhyzers) shows the spine is not vertical. They're leaning back during reach-back, forward during the pull, and then towards the target in the early part of the follow-through (and still over their toes a bit too). A vertical spine would require the hips to remain directly beneath the chest at all times. I don't see that happening.
JR said:
A disc golf throw arm movement goes horizontal rather than almost vertically as it does in golf so not all things carry over.
Can you show me videos of pros with horizontal arm angles and shoulder tilts? I believe we can put the disc on a flat plane, given the geometry of our shoulders and elbows and wrists, while still in slight forward flexion.
JR said:
There are two ways of countering the back force of the elbow chop.
What back force? Which direction is "back"? I'm a beginner. I understand the physics, and a good bit of the biomechanics, but I don't necessarily get some of the words you're using in their disc-golf-throwing-specific meaning. You'll remember I had asked you to clarify what you meant by "right" side of the tee earlier - I now know when you say "right" or "left" you mean as you stand at the back of the tee looking down the hole.
JR said:
One is the Feldy kick and the other is to keep the rear leg on the ground. Too may are in between not achieving the goal of countering the elbow chop back force. At the moment you do neither version to the max. Think of a weight shift. Which is more powerful way using only momentum of the steps with straight knees or using the momentum and adding to that the back to front push of the left leg from a bent knee to a straight knee?
Again, in golf people think the rear leg helps you push forward, but studies have been done and the leg contributes almost nothing. I've not seen too many videos of pros who appear to be pushing off with their back leg much at all. I don't necessarily buy right now that the left leg contributes much to push forward, and what little it contributes is primarily responsible for helping push the left hip around. I think this portion HAS some overlap with the golf swing as they're both weight-shift-and-rotation dominated in this phase of the motion. They've attached electrodes. The back leg doesn't do much in the golf swing despite a sizeable pressure shift. In fact, if the trail leg pushed in the golf swing, we wouldn't see pressures of only 5-10% under the right foot at impact. Pushing would spike the pressure readings under that foot.
JR said:
Rotation to the right is faster if the left leg pushes forward and the right leg pushes back. Try it without throwing to see the difference. With a left leg on the ground at the hit you want the right knee to be fairly straight after pushing back but not totally straight and the left knee should be even straighter after coming from a deep push.
I can see that, and straightening both knees also helps my right foot get onto its heel, but I'm not certain how I can do this and have my right knee, ankle, and armpit in a vertical line.
These guys don't have those parts in a line (nor are all of their back legs straight):
http://f.cl.ly/items/3d3W0d1w0G2o3g3i2k3W/Analyzr%20Image%20Export.jpg
http://f.cl.ly/items/3u2k0V0M1P3E041g2u2x/Analyzr%20Image%20Export%202.jpg
JR said:
Again Jussi Meresmaa shows well how much power and control you get from a steeply bent left knee pushed to straight. It is a killer tip for putting power increase, accuracy and consistency too.
I am not convinced. That's not to say I can't be - that's why I'm still asking. Do you have a good video of Jussi? I went to the channel and searched "Finnish Open 2010" and you said there were two videos and I didn't have the time earlier to figure out which of the 24 with those words in the title he was in.
JR said:
Another great knee benders is Jalle Stoor and Miko Fyhr bends almost as much. You can see both of those guys in our videos and they too are or have been over 1000 rated. A friend of Jalle Nils Iso-Markku plays in the final round of Siltamäki Open 2012 and bends almost as far down as Jalle for great results shooting -11 for 18 holes in rain and wind one off the course record made without the rain. The video is on lcgm8 channel. Note that properly using the knees in unison does not change the head height so your key is not compromised
I ask because very few of the U.S. guys seem to be pushing off (either pushing weight forward OR to spin their hips) because their knees stay bent, their left foot has barely the toe on the ground or is literally in the air, etc.
JR said:
safeguard against injuries, add force to weight shift and body rotation and makes you a class or two better putter. So in knees bending or not golf and disc golf are total opposites.
I'm not sure you understand knee bending in golf enough to stay something like that. Golfers bend and straighten their knees for power (speed) and rotation. It's parametric acceleration. Some long drivers literally jump in the air because they're using their legs so much.
Here's an extreme example, but a good example all the same:
One specific question, JR. You want both knees flexed at some point, the right ankle, knee, and armpit to line up, and my spine to remain vertical from down the line and face-on, with the right foot pivoting around the heel in the follow-through.
Right? How is all of that even possible?
Perhaps you can clarify each of those points.
At what point are the right and left knees flexed? When are they straight?
At what point is your spine "vertical" and from which view point?
At which point should your right ankle, knee, and armpit line up vertically?
I agree about rotating on the heel so I won't ask at what point that happens.
From looking at your video I actually think most of your posture seems okay. Look at a slo-mo video of Ken Climo, he has the most effortless throw there is and he doesn't have vertical posture from a side view or any of those other positions completely in line. The main thing is that your stance is way too wide and you're not light enough on your feet to effectively get your weight forward, and you never really do it. You need to really get the feel for getting your weight forward, you should be moving forward hard enough that you step forward off the teepad after you throw.
There's a golf drill that I've done lots of times- hitting balls with a 1/2 swing and all of your weight forward, really getting the feel for how your weight should be at impact and getting your hands forward. You can do a similar drill in disc golf, which is basically to practice 100' approach shots. Stand with your feet in line with the target, weight equally distributed. Rock forward and throw a smooth, line-drive throw to the basket. You should feel all your weight forward on your front foot, it's okay if your back foot comes off the ground completely (it probably should). You want to emulate this same feeling on your full-power shots.
You should be very light on your feet going into the throw, otherwise you will stay stuck way behind your lead foot even if it's supporting all of your weight. That's part of the reason why it's so important to bend your legs, if you leave them straight then you're basically pinning your weight where it is when you plant your lead foot and not allowing your body to continue transferring weight forward. The end result is an arm-driven throw which won't ever get real distance.
Holy squat and thrust on Lisa Longball! It's interesting how early she squats in the backswing, and raises the head in the downswing although she probably has a much higher trajectory than most. Even Bubba Watson who jumps, doesn't raise the head in the downswing and doesn't really get into full squat until the downswing. And Jamie Sadlowski keeps his head down as well and doesn't seem to have as much squat as either of them. Also looks like she is weightless at impact with both feet in the air and I think Bubba and Jamie are also weightless at impact. I think the major differences from disc golf and ball golf are the trajectory and the final lever length/timing.
From looking at your video I actually think most of your posture seems okay. Look at a slo-mo video of Ken Climo, he has the most effortless throw there is and he doesn't have vertical posture from a side view or any of those other positions completely in line. The main thing is that your stance is way too wide and you're not light enough on your feet to effectively get your weight forward, and you never really do it. You need to really get the feel for getting your weight forward, you should be moving forward hard enough that you step forward off the teepad after you throw.
Thank you. I'll try to quantify staying lighter on my feet in some way here eventually.
mikes919 said:
There's a golf drill that I've done lots of times- hitting balls with a 1/2 swing and all of your weight forward, really getting the feel for how your weight should be at impact and getting your hands forward. You can do a similar drill in disc golf, which is basically to practice 100' approach shots. Stand with your feet in line with the target, weight equally distributed. Rock forward and throw a smooth, line-drive throw to the basket. You should feel all your weight forward on your front foot, it's okay if your back foot comes off the ground completely (it probably should). You want to emulate this same feeling on your full-power shots.
You should be very light on your feet going into the throw, otherwise you will stay stuck way behind your lead foot even if it's supporting all of your weight. That's part of the reason why it's so important to bend your legs, if you leave them straight then you're basically pinning your weight where it is when you plant your lead foot and not allowing your body to continue transferring weight forward. The end result is an arm-driven throw which won't ever get real distance.
Thanks. That helps quantify it. I appreciate it. I think I'm starting to get a clearer picture of my footwork now.
seabas22 said:
Holy squat and thrust on Lisa Longball! It's interesting how early she squats in the backswing, and raises the head in the downswing although she probably has a much higher trajectory than most. Even Bubba Watson who jumps, doesn't raise the head in the downswing and doesn't really get into full squat until the downswing. And Jamie Sadlowski keeps his head down as well and doesn't seem to have as much squat as either of them. Also looks like she is weightless at impact with both feet in the air and I think Bubba and Jamie are also weightless at impact. I think the major differences from disc golf and ball golf are the trajectory and the final lever length/timing.
To be clear, you don't have to actually leave the ground to use the ground to generate parametric acceleration. Sam Snead squatted a little, and at a point in the downswing near to where the shaft is parallel almost all pro golfers will all extend their knees, hips, and begin extending their backs to help aid the final "snap" of the club down towards the golf ball.
I interpreted your description of golf knee bend totally wrong so disc golf and golf knee usage are not total opposites. The pictures you posted very very illustrative because the guys aren't yet at the hit. You need to pivot around the right heel/right knee/right arm pit axis at the hit. That means that the heel pivot starts a little earlier but you want to concentrate a maximum acceleration at the hit. So the radius of your weight rotating around the center of the rotation needs to be the tightest possible for the fastest rotation during the hit. When you are at ankle/knee/arm pit in a vertical line. If you tilt the hips and the upper torso away from perfectly upright you shifted weight away from the heel pivot axis so physics say that the rotation with the same force has to be slower.
Another physics bit from Sir Isaac Newton. For every force there is an equally strong and opposite force. So when you chop the elbow forward the body turns back and leftfrom that force because the elbow moves forward and right. You can test this by standing on the right leg and having a loose core and making the arm swing hard. The harder you throw the more your torso moves to the left.
You read me wrong i am wary of counting the throws of noobs into absolute commonalities as a criterion for any part of form to becoming or being excluded from being a key. I advocate only using competent or even top pro players as yard sticks for finding out the keys.
I would like to see a slo mo top down video of Dan. Such a video has not been released and i need to look more closely at some vids of Dan for straightness of disc movement from the right pec forward. I suggest you do the same at channel mfranssila and the slo mo bits of Tali Opens 2009-2011. My seat of the pants feel is that most if not each top pros move the disc in a straight line from the right pec to the rip. Minus possible a small curve that comes from the elbow extending out of sync timing wise with the rest of the body movements.
Avery Jenkins likes to finish with the left toe on the ground these days i think he has noticed the left leg being too far airborne in the dual angle slow motion video. See seven drives with Avery Jenkins for 2011 footage. Climo is dynamic in his weight shift back to front and many people mistake his follow through lunge and bending forward at the hip to being that way at the rip. Check out channel mfranssila for slo mo stuff of many players. The flight is not shown so climbing throws may corrupt the results.
You can measure the speed you are moving forward and the pressure plates and the rotation speed of a non left leg push and a left leg push. Carlsen didn't measure one way vs others and didn't include under hips stuff for his thesis but the measurements should not be hard for you to do. You don't have to believe me look at the slo mo vids of those that throw this way and make a measurement of yourself. And for a quick reality check do a left leg long jump and tell me it can't add power and distance to a throw. Without bending the knee and extending it you can't go that far vs bending way down and extending the knee straight from there. BTW. i'd like to know how far you jumped with each version because i've never heard the results from a disc golfer.
I agree with the logic of Dunipace in that it is not as important what you do before the rip as long as the angles are correct there. The same logic applies to the heel pivot and upright posture at the hit. You lose the most there if your posture is crooked and not as much before or after the hit with after being less important as long as you compensate with the arm with on plane follow through. That doesn't mean that you cannot polish the efficiency of the throw posture wise before the hit. You are correct about leaning back at the reach back but that is mostly or fully depending on the person coming from the legs leading the body and the hind leg bending the knee. I've seen many straight spine reach backs where the knees do all the leaning back. The Climo way of bending the hips forward at the follow through is not the only form there is because you can lean forward with a straight spine if you leave the right knee steeply bent and straighten the left knee. Leaning forward at the waist is great for forcing the nose down limiting the ape height which is good for throwing under the branches and avoiding fading out of the fairway. Climo is smart and staying on the fairway is mandatory to becoming a 12x world champ. Don't mistake flight manipulation for optimum power generation both have their uses.
You need to look for spine straightness in perfectly flat throws. You wrote fairly flat. There are two ways of throwing hyzers and annies. One is specified in my signature and the other is tilting the spine. I already told about the efficiency disparity between these styles. A vertical spine at the hit or actually if you measure inches that is the ideal for only one speed of throwing. Because the plant step stride length varies with running speed but for an x step that is a spot on description that the spine is vertical and you pivot around the heel/knee/arm pit. Add a run up and the speed and stride length increases so that you are still spine straight up and the ankle is ahead of the knee which is ahead of the arm pit. There a small leaning forward at the hips and i mean just enough to get the center of the body weight closest to the heel pivot axis of rotation. Axis of rotation is the key term along with getting as much mass there so if we nit pick the knee bend angles need to change with the stride length and the speed. I restate that a pirouette at max speed does not ever start with the arms out. The weight must be as close to the rotation axis as possible and the axis is the spine in a pirouette.
Videos of flat shots are all over the place look for them yourself it is common so looking at other stuff in the videos i've already mentioned should reveal those. From memory Avery might have just that. And do some homework and look for Jussi yourself. Final and one other round contain his throws in the FO2010.
Another great drill for seeing what the knee bend does is to putt. Make your regular full power putt with a stagger stance and measure how far it went. Try different rear leg bending angles with a stagger stance down to sitting back as far as you can so way over 100 degree knee bend angle at the left knee and measure the results. I would wonder how strong of a squat lifter you are if your maximum squat would produce the longest putt. I would also wonder if squatting down to around 80 degrees wouldnät outfly straight knees putt by a large margin. In an interview FPO world champ Sarah Hokom said to lift weights with a squat to get as long a stride as she does in an FH drive. I can only assume that she means she can get more power from pushing so hard with the rear leg.I interpreted your description of golf knee bend totally wrong so disc golf and golf knee usage are not total opposites. The pictures you posted very very illustrative because the guys aren't yet at the hit. You need to pivot around the right heel/right knee/right arm pit axis at the hit. That means that the heel pivot starts a little earlier but you want to concentrate a maximum acceleration at the hit. So the radius of your weight rotating around the center of the rotation needs to be the tightest possible for the fastest rotation during the hit. When you are at ankle/knee/arm pit in a vertical line. If you tilt the hips and the upper torso away from perfectly upright you shifted weight away from the heel pivot axis so physics say that the rotation with the same force has to be slower.
Another physics bit from Sir Isaac Newton. For every force there is an equally strong and opposite force. So when you chop the elbow forward the body turns back and leftfrom that force because the elbow moves forward and right. You can test this by standing on the right leg and having a loose core and making the arm swing hard. The harder you throw the more your torso moves to the left.
You read me wrong i am wary of counting the throws of noobs into absolute commonalities as a criterion for any part of form to becoming or being excluded from being a key. I advocate only using competent or even top pro players as yard sticks for finding out the keys.
I would like to see a slo mo top down video of Dan. Such a video has not been released and i need to look more closely at some vids of Dan for straightness of disc movement from the right pec forward. I suggest you do the same at channel mfranssila and the slo mo bits of Tali Opens 2009-2011. My seat of the pants feel is that most if not each top pros move the disc in a straight line from the right pec to the rip. Minus possible a small curve that comes from the elbow extending out of sync timing wise with the rest of the body movements.
Avery Jenkins likes to finish with the left toe on the ground these days i think he has noticed the left leg being too far airborne in the dual angle slow motion video. See seven drives with Avery Jenkins for 2011 footage. Climo is dynamic in his weight shift back to front and many people mistake his follow through lunge and bending forward at the hip to being that way at the rip. Check out channel mfranssila for slo mo stuff of many players. The flight is not shown so climbing throws may corrupt the results.
You can measure the speed you are moving forward and the pressure plates and the rotation speed of a non left leg push and a left leg push. Carlsen didn't measure one way vs others and didn't include under hips stuff for his thesis but the measurements should not be hard for you to do. You don't have to believe me look at the slo mo vids of those that throw this way and make a measurement of yourself. And for a quick reality check do a left leg long jump and tell me it can't add power and distance to a throw. Without bending the knee and extending it you can't go that far vs bending way down and extending the knee straight from there. BTW. i'd like to know how far you jumped with each version because i've never heard the results from a disc golfer.
I agree with the logic of Dunipace in that it is not as important what you do before the rip as long as the angles are correct there. The same logic applies to the heel pivot and upright posture at the hit. You lose the most there if your posture is crooked and not as much before or after the hit with after being less important as long as you compensate with the arm with on plane follow through. That doesn't mean that you cannot polish the efficiency of the throw posture wise before the hit. You are correct about leaning back at the reach back but that is mostly or fully depending on the person coming from the legs leading the body and the hind leg bending the knee. I've seen many straight spine reach backs where the knees do all the leaning back. The Climo way of bending the hips forward at the follow through is not the only form there is because you can lean forward with a straight spine if you leave the right knee steeply bent and straighten the left knee. Leaning forward at the waist is great for forcing the nose down limiting the ape height which is good for throwing under the branches and avoiding fading out of the fairway. Climo is smart and staying on the fairway is mandatory to becoming a 12x world champ. Don't mistake flight manipulation for optimum power generation both have their uses.
You need to look for spine straightness in perfectly flat throws. You wrote fairly flat. There are two ways of throwing hyzers and annies. One is specified in my signature and the other is tilting the spine. I already told about the efficiency disparity between these styles. A vertical spine at the hit or actually if you measure inches that is the ideal for only one speed of throwing. Because the plant step stride length varies with running speed but for an x step that is a spot on description that the spine is vertical and you pivot around the heel/knee/arm pit. Add a run up and the speed and stride length increases so that you are still spine straight up and the ankle is ahead of the knee which is ahead of the arm pit. There a small leaning forward at the hips and i mean just enough to get the center of the body weight closest to the heel pivot axis of rotation. Axis of rotation is the key term along with getting as much mass there so if we nit pick the knee bend angles need to change with the stride length and the speed. I restate that a pirouette at max speed does not ever start with the arms out. The weight must be as close to the rotation axis as possible and the axis is the spine in a pirouette.
Videos of flat shots are all over the place look for them yourself it is common so looking at other stuff in the videos i've already mentioned should reveal those. From memory Avery might have just that. And do some homework and look for Jussi yourself. Final and one other round contain his throws in the FO2010.
Another great drill for seeing what the knee bend does is to putt. Make your regular full power putt with a stagger stance and measure how far it went. Try different rear leg bending angles with a stagger stance down to sitting back as far as you can so way over 100 degree knee bend angle at the left knee and measure the results. I would wonder how strong of a squat lifter you are if your maximum squat would produce the longest putt. I would also wonder if squatting down to around 80 degrees wouldn't out fly straight knees putt by a large margin. In an interview at Disc Golf Talk Radio FPO world champ Sarah Hokom said to lift weights with a squat to get as long a stride as she does in an FH drive. I can only assume that she means she can get more power from pushing so hard with the rear leg.
One specific question, JR. You want both knees flexed at some point, the right ankle, knee, and armpit to line up, and my spine to remain vertical from down the line and face-on, with the right foot pivoting around the heel in the follow-through.
Right? How is all of that even possible?
Perhaps you can clarify each of those points.
At what point are the right and left knees flexed? When are they straight?
At what point is your spine "vertical" and from which view point?
At which point should your right ankle, knee, and armpit line up vertically?
I agree about rotating on the heel so I won't ask at what point that happens.
It is easiest to learn this by doing and mimicking. So the rocking back and forth drill with at least 30 preferably 45 degrees bent knees moving as far back as you can and then forward as far as you can without tripping over should teach you all of this in seconds. I also suggest looking at the videos for what the players i mentioned earlier.
The spine should be vertical at the hit for maximum power generation relative to the earth. When you throw like i describe in my signature you are always throwing the arm plane 90 degrees to the torso (with a straight spine) rotating on the center of the axis that is the heel pivoting. Try to find a more powerful arm movement than a 90 degree plane relative to the torso and if you do please teach me that. Aren't muscles most powerful in the center of their movement range? Isn't a 90 degree arm swing vs the torso the center of the movement range for the arm?
It is debatable is the key of keeping the head at the same height should be removed from the keys list because of the Brinster hop. I am not sure if a lack of keeping the head at constant height ruins the chances of getting a great shot because doing that doesn't add much to a throw and not doing it doesn't always ruin the throw either. You can get an OAT free throw long even if you bob up and down all you like as long as the arm is not compromised at the hit and the follow trough. So i question the use of not changing the head height in a throw from results point of view. what is the point of drilling something that does not always improve the throw? But i'm an utilitarian. i can see the academic interest needs and i'm fine with that.
The reason i would not dismiss the key of not moving up and down is that if you look at Brinster and Moser they maintain the same angles as everybody else minus the natural up to down motion shock absorber effect. So i would argue that in all the ways that matter those two guys and me for years were otherwise on par with everyone moving with regular steps maintaining constant height. Except we load the legs muscles more plyometrically from the dropping and landing so we get added power from gravity and hopping up converted back to a faster push forward.
Ooh maybe a real world non DG example from work might help you to understand the need and utility of pushing forward with the left leg in disc golf. In a summer job when i was young i was moving over 1500 kilos of stuff with a manually powered fork lifter from an elevator that was about 3" below the floor to which i needed to move the stuff. I didn't have enough power to push the fork lifter above that step. So i hopped up and upon landing i put my left leg on the back wall of the elevator and i managed to push the stuff over that step. Now tell me pushing forward does not create power :-D It is time to stop arguing against me on that count and proving it to yourself by doing it in real word. Happy drills. And no arguing back is allowed until you done things right because from a feel and the distance of a disc flight it is a no brainer to see the results. Go measure young man :-D
