My Throwing Motion (iacas)

[JR]

For the way Miko Fyhr and also the best Finn career wise Timo Pursio use their knees in Tali Open 2012 finals here is the final part of the finals. I don't link our HD material here to be made smaller by phpBB:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg9MsZ7_kF8

Timo usually throws like my signature describes. Before he took a hiatus from DG he was sponsored by Millennium. IIRC he was rated 1026 in 2009 which for the time was insanely high. This is his comeback tournament.

 

[iacas]

I appreciate the help you've offered and the time you've taken, but as you know this thread is about my particular motion. It's not the Keys thread, and little of the stuff you typed seems directly relevant to my throwing motion and the top priorities, so I'm going to respond to the parts that seem relevant.

I will say though that I've got a fairly good understanding of physics and the problem with trying to apply simple Newtonian laws to bodies is that our bodies are not closed systems, and energy and forces can be applied from within.

I would like to see a slo mo top down video of Dan.

I would to. It's possible Blake got his motion wrong. Not specific to my throw, but a short comment.

And do some homework and look for Jussi yourself. Final and one other round contain his throws in the FO2010.

I did go and look. I just didn't have the time to look through 24 videos for the two with him in them, and thought you might know which they were off the top of your head.

To get back to the bit about the knee/ankle/armpit and the vertical spine, you've said two things are true:
1) the knee, ankle, and armpit are in a vertical line (that's equidistant from the target)
2) the knees go from flexed to straight.
3) your spine is vertical to the ground

For those to both be true, you'd have a stick figure that looks like this (right upper, lower leg and spine shown):

In A the spine isn't vertical, and in B everything is vertical but the disc golfer here doesn't have his knees bent and doesn't appear to resemble many disc golfers that I've seen, plus he's expended energy in straightening not only his knee but his hips too.

It's a core tenet of our golf instruction that turning your shoulders in a circle (by keeping their center of rotation relatively still) is more efficient than turning them around a rotational center that's moving up and down or left and right, so I'm with you on that.

The spine should be vertical at the hit for maximum power generation relative to the earth. When you throw like i describe in my signature you are always throwing the arm plane 90 degrees to the torso (with a straight spine) rotating on the center of the axis that is the heel pivoting.

If you're vertical to the earth, you're straight up and down from any angle, whether it's face-on or down-the-line. So when are you in position A? When are you in position B? In A the spine is not vertical to the earth (and if the arm and disc are horizontal, it's not perpendicular to them either).

I cannot envision a situation where the knee is bent, the ankle, knee, and armpit are in a line, and the spine is vertical. Can you?

And if the knees are bent, and you move from A to B during the throwing motion, how do you not stop the head from rising as much as it should from the loss of flex in the right knee and the hip joint?

Perhaps I'm brain farting here, or I'm supplying a constraint that doesn't exist, but that's why I asked those questions given your truths: the ankle/knee/armpit, the knee changing flex, and the spine vertical to the ground.

Just flat throws here. No anhyzer or hyzer stuff.

 

[sidewinder22]

Overhead of Beto at 2min:

 

[JR]

I have not read the latest reply from you in the other thread so this answers only your last post in this thread. I want to make extra sure that we are talking of the same thing with the images. I have trouble to be exactly certain about the perspective you meant in those pictures. If the view is from the rear of the tee toward the front A is a golf left handed player posture and if the view is from the right side of the tee to the left it is a thrower bending forward at the hips like Climo in his follow through moving from the right to the left in the picture. I interpret the pictures to viewed from the left side of the tee at a player who is moving from right to left. Did i interpret correctly?

Bradley Walker was the first guy here to talk of the intersecting line from the heel through the knee to the arm pit around which axis you pivot. It is more of a conceptual image illustrating the axis around which the pivot rotates the body than a hard law for every throw. So it is good to clarify it more.

When you are talking of absolutes of having the heel,knee and the arm pit exactly at the same distance from the target you are moving fairly slowly so it is a no run up slow control x step or the stride length would be out of sync with the maximum left leg weight shift forward power+the momentum that you have from the x steps. There is only one possibility when those body parts are equidistant from the target and that is when the plant step stride length is from the right leg alone the same as that of your shoulder width. Or to be more precise application wise the spine to right should distance is the same as the spine to ankle distance when looking down from directly above the thrower. Note that with bending the knees the spine to left ankle distance changes throughout the throw as you are shifting the weight forward even if you were not pushing actively with that leg. The push of the left leg adds to the spine to ankle distance even more. Look at videos of Sarah Hokom making the most visible rear leg push in her FH for example here:


We should be generate forces from within especially the left leg because the legs are the largest power source in a throw according to some. I'm not getting too much D from arms as strings no hip and shoulder turns though so i am wary about the scientific veracity of that quote. Out of my 400'+ max D how do we divide the power to each part of the body? Susan? Hummel did some of that stuff at least in theoretical modeling but i have been lazy and have not read through all of her thesis yet. I can throw 200' or a little more standing perfectly still with moving only the arm so IMO the statements of force from different body parts and the contribution to a real throw need aerodynamics of a thrown disc to be examined too to say how many feet of a throw come from which source and what the relation of generated force comes from where. I do not have that kind of data.

In your list number 2 might explain why you are not convinced about the need to push with the left leg. You wrote: "the knees go from flexed to straight". No they don't. At least not necessarily and if they do it is not always worth it. The right knee should be bent according to the desired apex height of the disc with more bending angle for a lower apex. So with flight manipulation dropping the nose of the disc it is mandatory that the arm pit moves forward of the heel and the ankle at the rip. For a non manipulated throws the left knee should be straight and the right knee bent. Not both straight necessarily. Some people try to maximize the body rotation by pushing to the max with the right leg pushing back so that they do get both knees straight at the rip. I have no measurement data of this but as anecdotal evidence i can tell that you that you do not want to repeat my failure of hitting a rock in the pivot so that the right foot and ankle are stopped prematurely and the right knee is straight. That led to twisting of the knee with my momentum plus much of body weight resulting in pain. I am limber and was lucky to not get injured. I wasn't moving fast on that natural tee for obvious reasons.

An even more ambiguous anecdote: I am more accurate and consistent throwing with a slightly bent right and for under max power left too knee because of balance and more tactile balance control. The ground is not always flat so a little shock absorber movement range is a good real life insurance against any kind of angle changing body part movement range limits that hit you when an uneven ground causes unexpected tripping, sliding etc. Feldy calls having bent knees "athletic position" in his clinics and there are vids of those about so look for those. One episode before the video above had more info from him and although i can't recall for sure i think Dave went over bent knees stuff and how to find the natural athletic position for yourself by jumping up turning 90 degrees left in the air in one of the vids. The stance you're at landing is your natural athletic position according to him. I'm even more strongly balanced with a wider stance than that YMMV. A good stance is one that doesn't need a lot of power to maintain even when someone pushes you. A poorly balances straight knee stance doesn't need much power at all to push you over. You should definitely try this drill too it is very illuminating. It applies to putting very much too because you gain so much distance that no matter how you punch with the arm you can't compensate for it and the arm overuse kills accuracy and consistency.

So now that you have seen people throwing with bent knees straightening the left one toward the end what does it look like? Have you imitated the similar motion in a throw and what have the accuracy and consistency changes been if there have been any? I've imitated Jussi and have adopted his style for stand stills most of the time. For the rest if the distances are short i spare my strength and stay more upright with slightly bent knees. For lower powered throws i don't always complete a full distance follow through step because i'm not reaching flexibility limits that could change angles.

For number 3 it is easy to see how thee spine can be vertical while the knees bend a lot in drives or watching fencers. Having an upright spine is child's play. Not much is simpler because you are accustomed standing upright and have that for a long time. Easier than riding a bike. As Nike says just do it :-D

You don't need to get to position A ever if you don't want to even though Climo does. You can easily have the spine upright and pivot and follow through step with the left leg should mirror the plant step in distance and landing position according to former distance world record holder Christian Sandström. The idea behind that is to stay in balance thus control not compromising power generation, timing and the angles at which the disc flies according to my experience and interpretation of what he meant. You can go to the position in A in the follow through trying to throw under tree limbs or steep downhill quite successfully and you can need even more right knee bending than that.

If you stand still and throw with only rotate the hips and the shoulders and whip with the arm you can throw to past 200' in the stance that picture B shows. That is far from optimal. If you draw the left leg too and not just the right to B having it be straight at the knee extending toward the right lower corner of the image that is a totally achievable stance at the rip at low speed. At high speed it would lock up the right hip joint not moving freely tripping you forward and limiting rotation to the right almost always resulting in missing to the left. A high speed version would be B with the right leg moving forward beyond the arm pit toward the left lower corner of the image. Note that it is still possible to have the ankle and the heel at the same distance from the target if you want to but then it is easier to lean more weight forward than with the heel closer to the target than the knee. Because each of those versions is beneficial in different situations i have no preference for any.

 

[iacas]

It is more of a conceptual image

Okay. So that changes things dramatically. Thanks.

Feldy calls having bent knees "athletic position" in his clinics and there are vids of those about so look for those.

I've seen several. They're not as helpful as you'd hope, but then again, player clinics are rarely very helpful. Feel ain't real, and they spend too much time saying "just practice" and "do what feels comfortable."

One episode before the video above had more info from him and although i can't recall for sure i think Dave went over bent knees stuff and how to find the natural athletic position for yourself by jumping up turning 90 degrees left in the air in one of the vids. The stance you're at landing is your natural athletic position according to him.

He does that in his push putting 40 minute video on Vimeo. I downloaded it since it seems to "move" quite frequently.

For number 3 it is easy to see how thee spine can be vertical while the knees bend a lot in drives or watching fencers. Having an upright spine is child's play. Not much is simpler because you are accustomed standing upright and have that for a long time. Easier than riding a bike.

The point I was making was that you can't have a bent knee, the armpit/knee/ankle in a vertical line, and a vertical spine. But now that I know that's more of a "conceptual" thing it renders this whole thing nearly moot.

My video from today, with absolutely no thoughts whatsoever going on, so I could make as "natural" a motion as possible.

Sent to Blake for analysis. I'll probably post some updates of me doing some drills and things here when he's had a chance to look and get back to me. He specified regular speed and these camera views. Regression for sure, but again, just trying to show where I'm at naturally right now, with no thoughts or attempts to do anything.

 

[JR]

Try this: Stand with the feet at shoulder width in front of a large mirror or look at somebody standing upright with the same stance. Are the heel, knee and arm pit on the same vertical line? It is very doable with a relaxed x step.

I'd like to hear what Blake has to say about that video. You have great ball of the foot height now which gives the best possible protection against getting the foot stuck in the middle of the pivot. Tremendous progress in there congratulations!

Your running direction was for a mild anny and the arm went in a mild hyzer. The left leg remained bent at the knee at the rip. Look at your follow through distance of the throwing arm and how the thumb points up. The hips and the shoulders not turning much along with the shoulder blade colliding with the back muscles stops you follow through to rough behind you. Compare that to the first top view of a top player slowed down that i thought of:


Markus Källström and Camilla Jernberg are even more extreme.

For more movement range of the arm in the follow through try rotating the arm from the shoulder socket and to a smaller extent elbow counterclockwise very quickly right after the rip. It helps in eliminating one source of OAT although it was not a problem in this throw plane preservation wise. It can be a problem power generation wise. The farther the arm follows through freely without drag the higher the chance of a fullest possible achievable acceleration up to the hit is.

 

[sidewinder22]

Watch the hip and spine travel in the follow through.

 

[iacas]

JR, I'm not sure that your signature is true. The video you chose to post shows Avery landing well to the left but throwing a slight hyzer to a flat shot (it's not an anhyzer). http://f.cl.ly/items/3y0S31080V1I3j2F1q0P/Analyzr%20Image%20Export.jpg That doesn't mean you're wrong (certainly not for whatever style of throw you preach, obviously Avery isn't 100% your style), but it doesn't seem to be the case very often. No need to respond - it just doesn't seem to be a hard and fast rule in backhands among the best. Maybe they violate the rules, but not violating them makes it easier. That's certainly a feasible thing.

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I'm going to be a good student and listen to and attempt to do whatever Blake asks me to do. I'm not going to have a "too many cooks in the kitchen" model to instruction.

When he tells me, too, I'm going to post here (with words and video most likely) at which time everyone can agree or disagree with him, but it won't sway me. We ask our students to trust us (though, to be fair, we give them good reason to within a few minutes of their lesson starting when they see improvement), so I'm trusting Blake to lead me down the proper path.

As I said, I made these throws without any thought. After the towel fell down on the first throw (I'll find one I can clip to the net next time) I didn't even really have a target. I was just throwing it towards the net.

If my practice is to not even throw a disc for the next two weeks but to work on some sort of drill or somesuch, I'm doing that.

 

[JR]

I want to answer. I would not wonder if Blake prescribed drills. If he doesn't you should still do the right pec drill and the secret technique thread drills.

There are plenty of players who throw placement accuracy shots like Avery did and other top players who throw like in my sig. My sig definitely is not a hard and fast rule but it is a very good way to maximize the accuracy and since most misguidedly ask for more distance i try to deviously improve their scores instead by improving their accuracy and consistency especially. Throw second shots or the tee in the rain or natural tees and the difference between my sig and the way Avery moved become apparent quicker and in a rougher way. Any slip with any step will be magnified and mistakes result in much worse lies if you don't play wide open courses. Tunnels are the real testers where every bit of accuracy and consistency shows up easily in the score cards. For that you need statistics so you need to throw a low of rounds if you don't have the hole for yourself so that you can practice a tight hole over and over again. That means that silver bullet fans won't be able to see the benefits as easily as those that do the real leg work of research by getting the statistics.

Some throw distance like Avery in that vid and accuracy like in my sig. Some throw exclusively with one or the other. In my experience after you have gotten in enough practice two different driving forms maximizing pros and minimizing cons for distance and accuracy separately gives you the best scores. Scott Stokely was right in that. In a time when Kenny ruled taking a world titled from him was a huge feat. Only a few guys have managed that. Russell, Todd and Doss being the other early winners. I can't say for sure when the rest of the pack got to be good enough to not have Kenny run away from them but the club that beat Kenny in his top performance days is small. Scott has a 3 DVD instruction set that is good in many aspects so maybe you should check it out because it goes deeper into the game than just form.Course management etc.

As a player that wants to develop my general advice always is to try everything out even if you don't know why it would help. Results speak for themselves. As long as you put in enough research for the differences to become detectable. And that is where gimme everything now whatareyouwaitingfor suckers lose out most times. Just like golf disc golf is for the patient.

 

[iacas]

So, as no surprise to anyone, I'm working on developing the feel for the hammer.

I'm putting my shoulders at 110° or so, wrapping my wrist around the disc a little bit (11 o'clock), holding it in that pocket a little bit as my arm goes forward without my shoulders opening much at all, and feeling the weight and letting the disc rip out of my hands instead.

I'm not at home so I played 36 holes today, almost all of the holes with mids (there are only two holes over 270). I was mostly trying to "play" rather than practice but I was trying to do things a little bit and could feel it. I'm going to do some hammer drills and more of the Bradley Walker type video where he throws his second one (IIRC) into his neighbor's yard four houses down.

I could feel things being better today. I'd also pull the disc right when:
a) my shoulders spun too much
b) I had the disc farther away from my chest than ideal.

Progress. Not a ton, but in the right direction.

 

[JR]

You need to have a fair bit of tension in the core muscles to avoid spinning out with the shoulders (could be too early timing too possibly in the same vein of over trying like gritting the teeth and tensing up the neck -you lose if you do that and at times i've noticed that in the run up and have managed to stop and set up again) and maintaining posture especially at higher speed x steps and even more so with a run up. I had a lapse of memory earlier because Discraft has done 3 distance throwing vids. Dion Arlyn the reigning distance throwing world champion talks of base speed of the run up plus what happens later in the latest video.

Check the Discraft video where Marty Peters says not to allow the wrist to be bent to the left of neutral position. Pre curling the wrist is considered a snap killer so i'd avoid that. If you were talking about where you grip the disc it is a little less dangerous but you can put the fingers in the same spot with a small diameter disc with a straight wrist as long as you have large enough fingers.

 

[iacas]

JR, I thank you for the advice given previously, but I'm working with Blake and am going to go that route. As such I'd ask that you simply leave me to that - I'll post my notes in this thread and am not looking for any outside counsel at this time. I don't particularly like when a golf student of mine goes and finds some new thing to work on all on his own, and I won't be doing that to my DG instructor.

Thank you.

 

[JR]

That's funny because they are his drills

 

[iacas]

That's funny because they are his drills

And he didn't prescribe them at this time.

 

[rhatton2]

Your post of sun 9th (second one on here ) Iacas is excellent, it condenses pictorially the body positions I try to explain to people that I'm coaching so well. I'm going to steal it

For a run through to get people throwing to 300' plus this is excellent as it clearly depicts the most obvious mistakes, which are sometimes so hard to describe in words or text. Whilst the drills from this site work really well I find it really helps to know the sorts of positions the body should be in to make the drills more effective.

 

[iacas]

Moved my thumb a bit farther out on the flight plate today and threw three of my best drives in a long time. Seems to have gotten rid of some OAT for me. Too many of my discs (that shouldn't turn) were turning despite being released at a moderate hyzer angle.

Two of the great drives were with an unstamped lime Volt - very small hyzer angle, a few degrees - would stand up and turn a few feet, then fade that few feet to end up straight away. VERY happy with those throws as well as the others.

Snap is improving. I still stink, but I'm working on the right things.

 

[iacas]

Filmed all of my shots on a round I played today. Reach-back was bad. Bending the arm because I'm not turning my shoulder back enough.

When I play my two thoughts are now:
1) Reach back straight (and even slightly to the left side of the tee pad)
2) Keep my hand on the outside of the disc.

When I do those things I make the best throws without much OAT.

Still practicing my hammer drill stuff when I have the time and my wife isn't around to look at me like I'm crazy.

 

[JR]

The first guy to throw 200 meters officially Chris Voigt reaches back very much toward the left side of the tee. and brings the disc close to the right pec and goes straight back to front from there if i've seen it right from the few vids of him that i've seen. That way keeps the arm muscles looser in the early part of the throw and the more biceps you have the slighter the chance of the bicep to pec collision there is when you reach back farther to the left. This makes the arm pull more complicated and there's more to learn. More timing variables.