Who's to say a person won't alter the card after everyone initials it?
-
Discover new ways to elevate your game with the updated DGCourseReview app!
It's entirely free and enhanced with features shaped by user feedback to ensure your best experience on the course. (App Store or Google Play)
Noticing wrong scores after the event
- Thread starter fishballer06
- Start date
Who's to say a person won't alter the card after everyone initials it?
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2009
- Messages
- 6,838
That old rule was: F. At the end of the round, each player shall sign the scorecard to attest to the accuracy of the score on each hole as well as the total score.
That rule did not list any consequences. Nothing happened differently whether a player signed the card or not. So it was not really a rule and it was removed.
Adding consequences was considered, but all were problematic under the one-card one-scorekeeper at a time method. (For example, what if the last scorekeeper wandered off without letting the other players sign?)
In the end, if a player wants to check their scores, they can. If they're trying to cheat, a signature won't stop that.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
IMO the vast majority of paper scorecard errors were simple miscalculations rather than efforts at cheating. Forcing each player to sign definitely reduced those errors. The consequence is the same either way- 2 strokes to the corrected score.
Moot now either way.
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2009
- Messages
- 15,700
I still think players signing their card is a good idea. At least it's proof that they claimed to have looked at the card and verified the accuracy of their score. It helps keep accountability on each individual player.
Also forces a 2nd set of eyes to tally scores before cards are turned in, which should reduce errors. Fewer errors going to the scorer's table means quicker results, and tournaments already take long enough.
Also forces a 2nd set of eyes to tally scores before cards are turned in, which should reduce errors. Fewer errors going to the scorer's table means quicker results, and tournaments already take long enough.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2009
- Messages
- 6,838
The tricky part is what are the consequences if they don't? Or weren't allowed to?
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2009
- Messages
- 15,700
Stoke them, just like you would an arithmetic error. Someone only needs to get stroked once to learn...
"I damn well better make it a point to watch the person holding the card when the round ends, make sure I agree with my score on the card and sign it."
There won't be a 2nd time.
"I damn well better make it a point to watch the person holding the card when the round ends, make sure I agree with my score on the card and sign it."
There won't be a 2nd time.
Last edited:
You'd like to think so, but … there's a local pro who's been stroked (at least) three times (so far) for turning in an incorrect scorecard. Missed out on cash on one occasion and got bumped down to tied for third from what would have been his first pro win on another. :doh: (Not that he cares: he's too busy indulging in post-round "heritage activities.")
I'm half-afraid to ask, but I think I'd rather know than not know. "Heritage activities?"
Chains Bailey
Birdie Member
I did not comment on the consequences of the rule or any attempts at cheating, what I was pointing out is that taking away the requirement to sign the scorecards removed the best tool for TDs to avoid any discussions of incorrect totals.
With a signature, the player has zero room to argue at all about the mistakes made.
Now with that requirement gone, there is an entire litany of reasons/excuses/blame etc...to be brought up by the players.
krupicka
Double Eagle Member
In the PDGA digital scorecard players have to "sign" their card. We still have the same problems.
TD: "Did you check your score before the card was turned in?"
Player: "No."
TD: "Sucks to be you."
TD: "Did you check your score before the card was turned in?"
Player: "Yes."
TD: "OK. I'll check with your cardmates. If they agree the score on the card is incorrect I'll correct it and add two strokes for turning in an incorrect scorecard; if they say its correct I'll DQ you for pencil whipping."
Player: "Uh … Nevermind."
Player: OK, cool. I know it's wrong.
...
TD calls card mates
Card mate 1: OH, that guy? Hmm...
(remembers Player calling him on a foot fault and having his friend, Card mate 2, add a stroke as revenge)
Yeah, the scorecard was correct.
...
TD (to Player): You've been DQ'd because your card mates said there was no error.
Chains Bailey
Birdie Member
TD: "Did you check your score before the card was turned in?"
Player: "Stuff" "I was peeing and did not get a chance" "I did but realized I was wrong walking back to the car" "The guy was an ass during the round so I left without looking, but now want to" "More stuff"
With the required signature...
TD: "Is that you signature?"
Player: "Yes"
............silence.......
Chains Bailey
Birdie Member
Agreed, but what I am talking about is changing a rule specific to one type of scoring that took away a novella of those "same problems".
The rule change would be equivalent to not requiring players to "sign" their digital scorecards now.
Same principle, different format. You should be required to sign all scoring methods in some form or another.
BillFleming
* Ace Member *
With Live Scoring, you are required to 'sign' for your score. After the round, the app asks each player to confirm their score by entering their PDGA number or last name and then hitting Confirm. Unfortunately, some players just fill in the other player's last name and hit confirm for them. They can get away with that because not everyone realizes you have to confirm your score on the app. In a tournament, I asked to confirm my score and the scorekeeper said he already confirmed everyone's for them. I let him know he shouldn't be doing that in case the score is wrong - he could end up causing someone strokes for confirming a wrong score when they never confirmed it. I also let him know he could be penalized for confirming the scores for others if someone had a wrong score and let the TD know they never had the chance to confirm it.
Last edited:
Chains Bailey
Birdie Member
I appreciate all the differing angles noted and agree many times it is just a case of "Too bad".
My primary gripe was taking away requiring a signature. Again - it would be equal to taking away the requirement of "signing" Live Scoring of any format right now in 2021.
It takes away the onus on the player to be responsible and accountable for that one small task. In turn it takes away the TDs most effective defense against the litany of excuses.
My primary gripe was taking away requiring a signature. Again - it would be equal to taking away the requirement of "signing" Live Scoring of any format right now in 2021.
It takes away the onus on the player to be responsible and accountable for that one small task. In turn it takes away the TDs most effective defense against the litany of excuses.
What part of, 808.G, "After the scorecard has been turned in, the total score as recorded is final," do you not understand? That's an absolute defense and a final answer, signature or not. Cite the rule, tell the whiner to grow up, and move on.
Chains Bailey
Birdie Member
Just simply attempting to lower the ability of the "whiner" to whine and avoid the amount of times I have to tell someone to "grow up and move on".
Maybe you will accept my understanding more, if I state things differently.
808.G is an absolute defense, but why take away another absolute defense of signing the scoring method? IMO, having two ways to end the whining is better than one.
