OAT Vs. turn over

[chiroflyer]

What would be the main difference between these two occurance?
I think i know what OAT is, the disc goes sailing way right due to wrist roll. While turning a disc over is when it shoot right but fails to fade back to the left for RHBH, correct?
maybe i am way off, so a little clarification would be great.

 

[Technohic]

OAT is off axit torque, which can cause a turnover, and can be used on purpose to throw a turnover. The issue is not being able to control it or, for a lot of new people, relying on it to get a disc too fast for them to fly "straight" which essentially robs distance and control they would otherwise have throwing a more proper speed disc OAT free.

A turnover OAT free means you are either throwing the disc fast enough on a level plane of rotation (arms like a windmill more than a high swing ride) to get it to turn over, or using an anyhyzer but still maintaining the single plane.

 

[Apothecary]

dont try to oat to throw a controlled turnover. it wont end well.:\

and oat isnt necessarily caused by wrist roll. there can be a ton of causes. think of it as wobble before the disc gets settled on its line.

 

[Pwingles]

The same physics that cause discs to be able to flip from a hyzer to flat is the same thing that causes discs to turn right (rhbh) when thrown flat if thrown hard enough. The disc is spinning faster around the edge of the rim then the weight on the outside of the rim can handle causing it to dip the right wing a bit until it slows down.

OAT is different than this, more like what was described above

 

[chiroflyer]

Ok, then I think I'm over-powering the discs then as I havn't noticed any wobble.
I do however get a bit of wobble with FH, don't flick much anyhow so i'll deal with that another time.

 

[garublador]

Wobble is caused by OAT, but OAT doesn't always cause wobble. You can still turn discs over with OAT and not see any wobble.

 

[Apothecary]

Wobble is caused by OAT, but OAT doesn't always cause wobble. You can still turn discs over with OAT and not see any wobble.

please post video of an example.

 

[chiroflyer]

When I do turn the disc over, it starts flying good and straight, nice and smooth, then slowly turns right like it's gonna be a beautiful S-curve, but it never completes the 'S' and keeps going right.

 

[Technohic]

What disc you using and how far?

Hows it look when you throw a putter? Thats where you are more likely to see a wobble if it doesnt crash and burn first.

 

[chiroflyer]

What disc you using and how far?

Hows it look when you throw a putter? Thats where you are more likely to see a wobble if it doesnt crash and burn first.

Champ Tbird. the thing is, when it does have a 'good' flight (not turnign it over) I get ~300, with a turn over they seem to go another 50' or so, consistantly.

Putters are also pretty clean too, I have noticed some wobble at times with those but nothing bad. They settle out quickly ending in a nice smooth drop.

 

[Pwingles]

on a FH throw wobble is sometimes caused by too loose or too tight of a grip. Ive also noticed people throwing FH that sometimes have a tendency to have unnecessary movements in their backswing causing poor form and angle of release issues and I see wobble in that often as well.

Also Fh throws with relatively understable discs is a tough thing to do well, it takes great form and a great understanding of how your discs react to the amount of snap a FH throw creates.

 

[chiroflyer]

Also Fh throws with relatively understable discs is a tough thing to do well, it takes great form and a great understanding of how your discs react to the amount of snap a FH throw creates.

Yea, I have found this to be true. I use a Pulse or Eagle when I do flick depending on the shot.

 

[garublador]

please post video of an example.

At 10:21 in the video in this thread:

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21890

(right after the hole where the guy throws the 14) they're all throwing roll curves (a turnover you get by using OAT). Watch how they start with their shoulders on a hyzer but finish more flat.

I don't know why people don't believe this. OAT is a force that causes the disc to spin. The type of OAT we're talking about causes the disc to spin end over end in the "turnover" direction (about the "roll" axis). Why would it have to flutter?

 

[sidewinding]

Leaning back at the waist or leaning your shoulder toward the target on the pull through is one of the more common causes of inadvertent turnover. You should be straight up and down like a spinning top to create a good level pull though.

Another cause is when a newer player starts manipulating wrist angles trying to get too fast, too overstable discs to fly straight. This develops into a bad habit that is compounded every time the player learns new ways to add power to their throw. These are the guys that take a Champion Boss on a 300' open hole and throw it 300' but the disc lands 300' right of the basket.

 

[Apothecary]

At 10:21 in the video in this thread:

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21890

(right after the hole where the guy throws the 14) they're all throwing roll curves (a turnover you get by using OAT). Watch how they start with their shoulders on a hyzer but finish more flat.

I don't know why people don't believe this. OAT is a force that causes the disc to spin. The type of OAT we're talking about causes the disc to spin end over end in the "turnover" direction (about the "roll" axis). Why would it have to flutter?

that is NOT turnover via oat. the example you cited is one of throwing an understable disc at a slight hyzer with clean release (read: no oat). hes using disc physics and a clean stroke to make the disc do what its designed to: slowly rotate from hyzer to anny and hold that anny line.

that is NOT oat. oat causes flutter and increases drag and makes discs flip over prematurely.

 

[garublador]

that is NOT turnover via oat. the example you cited is one of throwing an understable disc at a slight hyzer with clean release (read: no oat). hes using disc physics and a clean stroke to make the disc do what its designed to: slowly rotate from hyzer to anny and hold that anny line.

that is NOT oat. oat causes flutter and increases drag and makes discs flip over prematurely.

Don't listen to him. They are using OAT, you can see it when they follow through. It's easy to see with Dan. He starts on a hyzer and in his follow through his arm is below flat (not above like you'd need for a clean throw). He doesn't quite get the turn he wanted, though. You only get extra drag if you get flutter. Otherwise you just make the disc turn more or less. I'd call flipping prematurely the exact reason they're doing it. They want the discs to turn earlier than normal, it's how you shape lines.

How about you explain why you have to have flutter with OAT. I see no reason you have to have it, so I'd like to see the proof.

 

[chiroflyer]

This has cleared things up...didn't meen to start a 'forum fight' but....kick his a$$ sea bass!

 

[Apothecary]

Don't listen to him. They are using OAT, you can see it when they follow through. It's easy to see with Dan. He starts on a hyzer and in his follow through his arm is below flat (not above like you'd need for a clean throw). He doesn't quite get the turn he wanted, though. You only get extra drag if you get flutter. Otherwise you just make the disc turn more or less. I'd call flipping prematurely the exact reason they're doing it. They want the discs to turn earlier than normal, it's how you shape lines.

How about you explain why you have to have flutter with OAT. I see no reason you have to have it, so I'd like to see the proof.

you want me to show proof that we have different definitions of oat.

here is an example of oat:\:



flutter is, to me, a defining characteristic of oat. how do you define it?

 

[nbiebel]

Off-axis torque DOES NOT imply wobble of flutter. I could find many sources to prove it.

A throw without OAT involves a disc released in-plane with the motion of the arm and the follow-through. Good clean snap. All the force follows in two directions--one that puts the spin on the disc, and one that launches it forward through the air. When you start with your arm and the disc on a hyzer angle, and finish over-the-top with with arm down, off-axis torque comes into play. Feldberg once talked about that.

Off-axis torque is what it sounds like. It adds another direction of force. Your wrist rolls in either direction as you release, like adding another force vector into the picture, causing the disc to rotate (not with respect to an axis running vertically through the disc, but one running horizontally through, as you'd see it after you throw--like a stick through a flat cylindrical lollipop) in one of two directions. Most commonly, people try to use discs too fast and overstable for them and end up torquing them over to the right to get them to fly "straight." More advance players can, however, utilize both kinds of torque to throw everything from spike hyzers, where the disc is at a severe hyzer tilt which would otherwise require a follow through almost directly over the head, to rollers. Off course rollers can easily be thrown without off axis-torque. It's a matter of preference I think.

OAT sending the disc to the right--the most common kind--can sometimes get confused with turning a disc over via basic disc dynamic properties. If someone throws nice, relatively "straight" s-curvy shots with something like a Nuke, but only throws about 250, chances are they're either just starting it way anhyzer or torquing it. More appropriate discs can be turned over just from snap, putting enough spin on the disc to get it into a high-speed turn.

If the disc turns right and doesn't come back, it probably has more to do with the properties of that specific disc (stability, fade, etc.) than general disc dynamics and torque. http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

[fairweather_fan]

nice 1st post.

epic smiley fail at the end though...tragic. i can no longer accept these words you have said to be true.