Oblique Sling

[sidewinder22]

I hadn't noticed Brent Pourciau discussing this before in this video on hip to shoulder separation, but particularly starting at 2:48 he uses the whip example and talks of the opposing forces happening in the whip to get the crack. At 3:07 he says the key is where he reverses direction and "the handle comes down while the end goes up". Getting the hip to shoulder separation is definitely stretching the oblique slings with opposing forces for the rubber band effect.

He said this in the comments...
"I define the arm moving the handle of the whip as the back leg moving the hips down the mound. The front leg brake is the hand pulling back on the handle of the whip to transfer all the arm power up the body of the whip and beyond."

 

[Tinkles]

Just wanted to share my observations on this topic. I have traditionally done too much spinning in my throw. Some of this is from a golf background and also partly reading things like GG talking about it all being in the hips.

I have found that when you overturn your hips, you do no engage the lats and don't actually brace. What happens is that your hips are overturned and you have no "x-factor" or stretch in your lats/obliques meaning no rubber band effect as Simon puts it. People observing you my think you have a very smooth throw and you will get onto your right heel and seem like you are braced but you are actually just spinning on that heel rather than bracing and transferring power from the ground up into the throw. I also noticed that when I do this most of the acceleration that occurs in the throw seems to occur from reachback into the power pocket rather than from the reach back all the way through the hit.

I was at a tournament and really working on trying to keep my hips pointed toward the target rather than over spinning them in the backswing. All the sudden I went from a consistent 350 thrower able to hit higher numbers occasionally to consistently hitting 400 and parking holes I had never been able to before. I also had this weird feeling where I almost lost balance forward. It felt in some of my throws like the disc was pulling me out of my shoes toward the target. Didn't happen every time but was a surprise to feel this for the first time.

What I realized is that in keeping my hips pointed at the target (I also understand this is feel and that I am sure my hips are moving closed to the target to a degree) when I reach back I can feel a stretch in my lats and that as your hip slides forward it naturally creates this sling via the lats and the disc just moves into the pocket without me consciously doing anything with my arm. You feel the bounce as it occurs while you are simultaneously reaching back and sliding the hips forward. It is easiest to feel from a standstill or one step throw as you can easily control what your hips are doing in that regard. It is then much easier to add power and accelerate through the hit.

In my old style I felt like a whip but I could not add smooth acceleration through the hit. I always felt like the acceleration went into the pocket and then I was just continuing a rotation and flingin my arm out. Trying to add power out of the pocket during the fling and into the hit resulted in elbow pain and hyperextension. It wasn't a smooth athletic motion.

Now, I feel like it is much easier to feel the disc bounce into the pocket and add acceleration through the hit and its all from not overturning my hips so that my lats can actually participate in the throw and the brace catching my momentum and transferring it into the throw.

 

[Tinkles]

One point of clarification I'd like to add. Spinny throwers like myself might say that they feel the connection of the hips to the shoulder in their swing and we do but the difference is that in that type of throw the hips are pulling the shoulder around and you aren't really bracing but continuing to spin through the throw to keep your hips pulling your torso. You only have so much range of motion in your hips so it is very difficult to keep pulling your torso through that apparatus and you can't really brace because you need your hips to keep pulling the upper body via spinning.

An analogy that comes to mind is to picture you have a tennis ball on a stretch string attached to your hand. Your hand represents your hips, the string is your lats/obliques, and the ball is your shoulder. In a spin throw, for the entire backswing the ball/string are all in your hand and as you start the downswing, you are pulling the string forward as fast as you can and after you reach tension, the ball will follow. In the alternative approach, you are tossing the ball backwards for your back swing and immediately initiating the downswing by bulling the string forward. Here you get the rubber band effect of the ball bouncing back hard with much less hip movement.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

YEP!!! Spinning FEELS like you are accelerating, until you feel what real acceleration feels like. All kinds of bad habits FEEL powerful until you feel what the rubber band from the lats and oblique feels like, and as you described above how I have said the arm feels like its along for the ride and boom effortless bomb 50' past previous bests.

 

[SuperWookie]

One point of clarification I'd like to add. Spinny throwers like myself might say that they feel the connection of the hips to the shoulder in their swing and we do but the difference is that in that type of throw the hips are pulling the shoulder around and you aren't really bracing but continuing to spin through the throw to keep your hips pulling your torso. You only have so much range of motion in your hips so it is very difficult to keep pulling your torso through that apparatus and you can't really brace because you need your hips to keep pulling the upper body via spinning.

An analogy that comes to mind is to picture you have a tennis ball on a stretch string attached to your hand. Your hand represents your hips, the string is your lats/obliques, and the ball is your shoulder. In a spin throw, for the entire backswing the ball/string are all in your hand and as you start the downswing, you are pulling the string forward as fast as you can and after you reach tension, the ball will follow. In the alternative approach, you are tossing the ball backwards for your back swing and immediately initiating the downswing by bulling the string forward. Here you get the rubber band effect of the ball bouncing back hard with much less hip movement.

This is ALL very interesting and new. Can you talk more about HOW one would go about practicing this idea of springing the arm or disc? By sliding your hips forward while the disc/arm is still going back? In your final analogy at the bottom, I'm guessing tossing the ball on the string backwards and then immediately initiating the downswing by pulling the string would be like, tossing the disc back in your backswing, and your arm/disc catches tight and springs forward? And that you feel that stretch and spring in your lats/obliques? Does that sound about right?

And can you talk about HOW to do this? What has helped you learn how to go from spinning and rounding to bracing and the rubber band like feel? What specifically have you practiced to get that feel, and/or what mental notes or cues are you telling yourself to do, and when to achieve this feeling and results?

 

[Waddball]

What I realized is that in keeping my hips pointed at the target (I also understand this is feel and that I am sure my hips are moving closed to the target to a degree)

Can you clarify what you mean here by "pointed at the target"? I'm assuming you actually mean perpendicular to the target but maybe I missed something earlier in the thread.

I've been working hard at this hip stuff (via the rocking the hips thread) and I strongly suspect I'm now guilty of overturning, both in the backswing and the release, and of spinning more than transferring power (and also hitting that range of motion constraint you mentioned). It feels smooth and I'm getting more consistent, but so far it isn't gaining me much power. OTOH, if I don't overturn the hips, I tend to not get my backswing/shoulders fully facing away from the target (a different range of motion issue) and can round pretty badly.

 

[seedlings]

This is ALL very interesting and new. Can you talk more about HOW one would go about practicing this idea of springing the arm or disc? By sliding your hips forward while the disc/arm is still going back? In your final analogy at the bottom, I'm guessing tossing the ball on the string backwards and then immediately initiating the downswing by pulling the string would be like, tossing the disc back in your backswing, and your arm/disc catches tight and springs forward? And that you feel that stretch and spring in your lats/obliques? Does that sound about right?

And can you talk about HOW to do this? What has helped you learn how to go from spinning and rounding to bracing and the rubber band like feel? What specifically have you practiced to get that feel, and/or what mental notes or cues are you telling yourself to do, and when to achieve this feeling and results?

Can you clarify what you mean here by "pointed at the target"? I'm assuming you actually mean perpendicular to the target but maybe I missed something earlier in the thread.

I've been working hard at this hip stuff (via the rocking the hips thread) and I strongly suspect I'm now guilty of overturning, both in the backswing and the release, and of spinning more than transferring power (and also hitting that range of motion constraint you mentioned). It feels smooth and I'm getting more consistent, but so far it isn't gaining me much power. OTOH, if I don't overturn the hips, I tend to not get my backswing/shoulders fully facing away from the target (a different range of motion issue) and can round pretty badly.

|
If you will allow me to dramatize for effect

Do a 'karate chop' from center sternum out. Palm down (I never felt this until I put my palm down, maybe because I was obsessing with grip angle and staying outside the disc).

Karate chops. Do them (not intense, just steady motion). Keep doing them until you are aware what your shoulders are doing. No hips. Barely torso. Chest. Out. Chest. Out. Chest. Out.

I noticed that my shoulders do a small counter rotation before the chops and slight forward rotation through the chops. I wasn't trying to do that, my body just did it because of my instinct to throat chop bad guys, or whatever.

Do you feel that? Karate. Chop. Karate. Chop. Karate. Chop. Your slight shoulder involvement? Keep going until you feel that slight shoulder assistance to the karate chop.

Karate. Chop. Karate. Chop. Just a little harder. Think of Chris Dickerson's pre-throw robot routine and karate chop the imaginary disc way out there a few times. Karate chop a little harder like Chris Dickerson on the tee pad before he throws.

Now drop the hammer. Karate chop the bad guy for real. For the kill. Do you know how? You haven't been doing it yet. Not even close. You have been spinning. Feels pretty strong. Secure, right? How do you add deadly force? More shoulder rotation won't do it.

Lean back.

That's all. Lean back.

Karate chop the exact same motion you've hopefully just done a few dozen times. But lean your weight back, lean your torso away from the target while you do that same karate chop. If you do this, you will feel your arm want to fly out of it's socket. It's remarkable. Now add a heel turn to your lean-back-karate-chops.

Well, anyway, this was what I was doing yesterday when I started to feel it. I threw a round and felt very confident, hit more lines than usual, but the course doesn't have any bomber holes, so I'll see if this really works on the practice field today.

 

[Waddball]

Karate chop the exact same motion you've hopefully just done a few dozen times. But lean your weight back, lean your torso away from the target while you do that same karate chop. If you do this, you will feel your arm want to fly out of it's socket. It's remarkable. Now add a heel turn to your lean-back-karate-chops.

That seems more related to effective bracing than what Tinkles was getting at with the hip overturning remarks earlier. Moving the handle of the whip back vs. activating the oblique sling correctly at the start. I'm sure they're related, like all this stuff.

What a strangely elusive subject. I feel sometimes like we're all stuck in the parable of the blind men describing an elephant.

 

[seedlings]

That seems more related to effective bracing than what Tinkles was getting at with the hip overturning remarks earlier. Moving the handle of the whip back vs. activating the oblique sling correctly at the start. I'm sure they're related, like all this stuff.

What a strangely elusive subject. I feel sometimes like we're all stuck in the parable of the blind men describing an elephant.

There is a sense where the hips hesitate while the disc flies out. The karate chop helped bring the sensation alive. Hips and whip are all related. Maybe some day I'll know it instead of intellectual understanding.

 

[Waddball]

There is a sense where the hips hesitate while the disc flies out. The karate chop helped bring the sensation alive. Hips and whip are all related. Maybe some day I'll know it instead of intellectual understanding.

I hear you. I'm in the market for actionable changes, so I appreciate your karate chop suggestion. My takeaways from Tinkles, SW22, and your observations:

1. Create and maintain lats/core tension.
1a. Keep hips more in line with the x-step direction; only close them minimally to that line (don't overturn, or you lose tension).
1b. Otherwise keep the backswing same (more turning at the shoulders and core, less from hips).

2. Accelerate all the way through.
2a. Extension to pocket is passive and slower (pulled by sling), pocket to hit faster.
2b. Pull/karate-chop against your plant (plant as handle of the whip).

 

[Tinkles]

Can you talk more about HOW one would go about practicing this idea of springing the arm or disc? By sliding your hips forward while the disc/arm is still going back? In your final analogy at the bottom, I'm guessing tossing the ball on the string backwards and then immediately initiating the downswing by pulling the string would be like, tossing the disc back in your backswing, and your arm/disc catches tight and springs forward? And that you feel that stretch and spring in your lats/obliques? Does that sound about right?

And can you talk about HOW to do this? What has helped you learn how to go from spinning and rounding to bracing and the rubber band like feel? What specifically have you practiced to get that feel, and/or what mental notes or cues are you telling yourself to do, and when to achieve this feeling and results?

So I really only feel these things properly at half to three quarter speed. As far as practicing it, I would say to try getting in a standstill throwing position with your feet planted and reaching back. I think having your feet planted prevents you from over-rotating your hips and forces you to separate your hip and shoulder stretching that lat/oblique when you reach back. Then I just reach straight back at like 50% speed. Naturally as I do this my weight shifts back at the start and then forward right before max reach back. I'm not trying to time anything but just shifting weight and you kinda naturally find the rhythm. When you shift weight back to your front foot as your hip slides forward you feel the stretch and bounce of those lats.

No tossing the disc back in your backswing. The ball represents your shoulder which your arm is connected to. When I said tossing the ball back, I meant that to mean the same as you just doing a normal reach back with your shoulder moving away from the target. Near the end of the reach back your hips (hand holding the string) is starts moving forward and there is a point where your lats/obliques are stretched in two directions (ball/shoulder still moving back and hip/stringhand sliding forward). I definitely feel a spring in my lats - again at 50%. I'm definitely not getting the timing right every time.

Mentally, I'm personally just trying to limit my hip turn in the walk up. Its hard because to do that right, it feels like I am really open to the target so need a lot of reps to fix that inclination to just turn everything back to target and spin forward.

ETA - these are all concepts I've learned here, just my trying to work through them

 

[Tinkles]

Can you clarify what you mean here by "pointed at the target"? I'm assuming you actually mean perpendicular to the target but maybe I missed something earlier in the thread.

I've been working hard at this hip stuff (via the rocking the hips thread) and I strongly suspect I'm now guilty of overturning, both in the backswing and the release, and of spinning more than transferring power (and also hitting that range of motion constraint you mentioned). It feels smooth and I'm getting more consistent, but so far it isn't gaining me much power. OTOH, if I don't overturn the hips, I tend to not get my backswing/shoulders fully facing away from the target (a different range of motion issue) and can round pretty badly.

The rocking the hips thread is part of what started me on this path. To limit my hip turn its easier for me to carry the disc in the power pocket and almost rock it like a baby. if I get the disc away from my body more I tend to get back into an overturning situation.

Hips would be closer to parallel to target line - not perpendicular. Now I know that ultimately they will get to slightly closed but for me to make this work I have to feel them as pointed toward the line I want to throw. A line connecting my right and left hip sides would run to the target.

Spinning feels fast and effortless and works ok, I mean as a spinner I throw further than 80% of the league I play in (granted its people rated 750-950 with most probably in the 870 ish range). I find that I get a little more power right now rocking or keeping my hips straighter and I am also more consistent with hitting the line.

With respect to your shoulder turn, just speculating that you may be keeping your hips too restricted once you start the backswing. For me once my rear foot has landed during the x-step perpendicular to the target line, I have done my job of not spinning and at that point I just reach back and let my hips and torso do their thing. When spinning, my trail foot lands almost pointing away from the target. When trying to limit my hip turn, i want the trail foot to land close to perpendicular to target, and once its done that I'm generally in a good spot.

 

[Tinkles]

I hear you. I'm in the market for actionable changes, so I appreciate your karate chop suggestion. My takeaways from Tinkles, SW22, and your observations:

1. Create and maintain lats/core tension.
1a. Keep hips more in line with the x-step direction; only close them minimally to that line (don't overturn, or you lose tension).
1b. Otherwise keep the backswing same (more turning at the shoulders and core, less from hips).

2. Accelerate all the way through.
2a. Extension to pocket is passive and slower (pulled by sling), pocket to hit faster.
2b. Pull/karate-chop against your plant (plant as handle of the whip).

Makes sense to me. 2 is the hardest because you are reprogramming your brain not to put everything into the throw immediately.

 

[Waddball]

Hips would be closer to parallel to target line - not perpendicular. Now I know that ultimately they will get to slightly closed but for me to make this work I have to feel them as pointed toward the line I want to throw. A line connecting my right and left hip sides would run to the target.

That was the part that confused me (when I picture where my hips--plural--are pointed, it's straight in front of me). But you cleared it up, I get it.

When spinning, my trail foot lands almost pointing away from the target. When trying to limit my hip turn, i want the trail foot to land close to perpendicular to target, and once its done that I'm generally in a good spot.

I totally get what you're saying here and I'll be trying this asap. I've generally not been too worried about rear foot angle as a lot of pros wind up with their rear foot pointing away. Not crazily away, but well past perpendicular (I'm thinking of stuff like the slo-mo of Wysocki et al: https://youtu.be/aWDF5kiSFM4).

 

[Tinkles]

I've generally not been too worried about rear foot angle as a lot of pros wind up with their rear foot pointing away. Not crazily away, but well past perpendicular (I'm thinking of stuff like the slo-mo of Wysocki et al: https://youtu.be/aWDF5kiSFM4).

I think part of it is figuring out what works for your body and part of it is exaggerating something to fix a bad habit. Rick has 15 years and 6 inches on me so we will likely have some difference in what we are capable of and how we biomechanically throw. In my case when I am consciously working on this, I am deliberate with that foot but really using it as a mechanism to avoid excessive hip turn early in the walkup, not necessarily to always be perpendicular to target when actually throwing. When I am throwing outside of practice and not being deliberate, I believe my rear foot is rarely perpendicular to target.

 

[DamonRipper]

Just wanted to share my observations on this topic. I have traditionally done too much spinning in my throw. Some of this is from a golf background and also partly reading things like GG talking about it all being in the hips.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, lots of this hit home with me. I am currently really breaking down my form, and luckily had one of my recent rounds videotaped ... which really made it easy to see things I am doing wrong. (bracing, spinning, off arm chicken wing). I am now in the process of slowing everything way down and working on door-frame and Hershyzer drills to try and fix it. One thing I realized is that in my x-step I was taking too large and too rotated of a cross-step that turned my left foot more rearward than it should be, which contributes to the spinny throw. Same as you just posted!

 

[navel]

This just in: SLING is now a buzz word!

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[RyanRehberg535]

Actually trying that with a resistance band helped me feel something I have never felt before. Incredible work!

 

[crd 81]

Informative video, as usual!

Is it possible to have a good brace and not have a good sling?

I ask because my bracing is generally ok(not to say it is the best), however my shoulder and bicep are sore after I practice. I'm sure this is indicative of me pulling with the shoulder instead of the "sling".