Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
I think the DG tradition is more about multiples of 3 than just 9 since 12 and 24 hole layouts seem "normal" options. They just did 21 at TX States but I agree with Sauls that 15 seems like the odd multiple of 3.
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#Of Holes on A Course
- Thread starter abarker
- Start date
grodney
* Ace Member *
There is no law that forces courses to have 310 foot holes just because you have 310 feet of space.
Why build a course that 95% of your possible audience will never play more than once?
Why build a course that 95% of your possible audience will never play more than once?
Which makes no sense, but is nevertheless true.
We built Stoney Hill a hole at a time, and at times had a 7-hole course, an 11-hole course, a 17-hole course, an alternate 20-hole layout, before the current, infinitely more pleasing, 18-, 18-, and 24-hole layout options.
What's the difference between 17 holes and 18 holes? It should be insignificant but, for no good reason, the 17-hole course just felt WRONG and left us desperate to create an 18th hole.
I think anything between 12 and 18 feels incomplete. At 9 or 12, it seems like a short course, or a chance to play 2 rounds to equal 1 normal course (18 or 24).
*
Anyway, back to the subject course. Another advantage of paring down to 9 or 12 holes is that, when you're squeezing 18 holes into a property, you're using about every inch of land---the great, and the not so great. Cutting back means you can use the best, say, 70% of the land, and skip the rest.
Billipo
Birdie Member
Did u read the article "a course of course" in fdm magazine (the good one pdga once had)? Make the best course for the space even if not 18 holes. yes some will object but it's about the experience not how many holes you play.
BuzzSharpe
Par Member
18 is always preferable
As someone who has been playing disc golf longer than disc golf has been disc golf, and is a former ball golfer, I have been tagged as equating disc golf too closely to golf. DG is based on the rules and etiquette of golf. Even if the Scots developed golf as an eighteen hole event simply to match the number of shots in a fifth of whiskey, it is a standard of tradition that should always be honored, if at all possible. As one poster responded, without knowing distances and elevations and such, it is impossible to say for sure, but in assuming that your tee and basket placements and hole lines are pretty much to scale, I see what should be a simple fix for you. Eliminate holes four and seven and cut two of your longer holes in two. I would recommend number eight, for sure. From the present eight tee, you could shoot straight across the lawn to a basket placement tucked into the tree line, just to the right of the present seven tee. That would also allow you to somewhat straighten and lengthen number three. That would eliminate the sharp dogleg that many love, but would still include a good fade to the right, with added distance. It would create a bit of a walk to the next tee, but it should be a nice scenic trek across the open lawn. And it looks like you should have some good options in splitting number 11 in two. Number 16 is a consideration, but I really like the looks of flying between those two parallel tree lines.
Regardless, congratulations and good fortune to you in this endeavor. And remember, no matter how you lay it out, there will be some that are going to bi+c# and moan.
As someone who has been playing disc golf longer than disc golf has been disc golf, and is a former ball golfer, I have been tagged as equating disc golf too closely to golf. DG is based on the rules and etiquette of golf. Even if the Scots developed golf as an eighteen hole event simply to match the number of shots in a fifth of whiskey, it is a standard of tradition that should always be honored, if at all possible. As one poster responded, without knowing distances and elevations and such, it is impossible to say for sure, but in assuming that your tee and basket placements and hole lines are pretty much to scale, I see what should be a simple fix for you. Eliminate holes four and seven and cut two of your longer holes in two. I would recommend number eight, for sure. From the present eight tee, you could shoot straight across the lawn to a basket placement tucked into the tree line, just to the right of the present seven tee. That would also allow you to somewhat straighten and lengthen number three. That would eliminate the sharp dogleg that many love, but would still include a good fade to the right, with added distance. It would create a bit of a walk to the next tee, but it should be a nice scenic trek across the open lawn. And it looks like you should have some good options in splitting number 11 in two. Number 16 is a consideration, but I really like the looks of flying between those two parallel tree lines.
Regardless, congratulations and good fortune to you in this endeavor. And remember, no matter how you lay it out, there will be some that are going to bi+c# and moan.
jrawk
* Ace Member *
9 holes. with multiple tee pads and baskets, range those 9 holes from -200 to 300+.
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Cadmanic
Par Member
Winner winner chicken dinner!
Or just 9 baskets with 18 sleeves. Two, or even three, teepads per hole are the best way to change a course limited by space constraints.
MarcQueen
Newbie
move it to Newton Reservoir?
KniceZ
Double Eagle Member
Got your answer in the first page. Lots of options to keep everyone interested.
abarker
Bogey Member
Great suggestions. This is what I would prefer if it were my decision alone, however those who designed the course are pretty protective over the par 4 holes the way they are. It's always tricky to please everyone.
BuzzSharpe
Par Member
I Know What You're Saying
Barker, it's IMPOSSIBLE to please everyone. And I know about wanting to protect the few available par 4's. When we first started laying out The SPC, last year, there were four par 4's. Two of them proved through play to actually be long par 3's. One was shortened by over two hundred feet for safety concerns, and is slated for an additional shortening, leaving the layout with one legitimate par 4. The course does contain three 5's and a 6, but the overall course par rating has dropped from 66 to 62. And that's okay, even good. There is much ballyhoo about perceived safety concerns, and unless you're constructing a course in a 'wasteland' forest, which seems to be the norm for many, if not most new courses, there is always a chance for an incident. Even in the most remote and well designed of courses, there is opportunity for someone to get hit. The only time I've ever hit someone in four decades of play was on Wellspring in Burlington. And I'm at best a good recreational/mediocre intermediate player. When we were designing Johnson Street 23 years ago, it broke my heart that no one went along with my thought for a 777' par 4 in the power tower field. Of course, such a thing was unheard of back then. But now, a quarter of a century later, Johnson Street is considered one of the best in existence and is the course on which David Wiggins, Jr. learned the sport. Granted, over the years, holes were moved to accommodate new housing beside the park, blue and gold pads were poured, adding to the basic White par 54, which is, as I said, considered to be one of the finest designs in America. Except for a very small sandbox/swing set/jungle gym playground, we did have the luxury there of being the only activity in the entire park, though some in the High Point P & R department didn't originally comprehend a disc golf course taking up the whole of the park. The playground eventually disappeared for whatever reason, probably the perceived danger of sandboxes, swing sets and jungle gyms, but that gave space for additional tees at #1 and #3, allowing us to expand all 18 holes to three tees (4, if you count the gravel and brick pavers red tees).
Sacrifice a couple of your par 4's for the overall benefit and playability of the whole 18. A course with 17 good, conflict free par 3's and one really memorable par 4 will be your best option, for casual play enjoyment AND tournament competition. I'll cite Wellspring as example.
Barker, it's IMPOSSIBLE to please everyone. And I know about wanting to protect the few available par 4's. When we first started laying out The SPC, last year, there were four par 4's. Two of them proved through play to actually be long par 3's. One was shortened by over two hundred feet for safety concerns, and is slated for an additional shortening, leaving the layout with one legitimate par 4. The course does contain three 5's and a 6, but the overall course par rating has dropped from 66 to 62. And that's okay, even good. There is much ballyhoo about perceived safety concerns, and unless you're constructing a course in a 'wasteland' forest, which seems to be the norm for many, if not most new courses, there is always a chance for an incident. Even in the most remote and well designed of courses, there is opportunity for someone to get hit. The only time I've ever hit someone in four decades of play was on Wellspring in Burlington. And I'm at best a good recreational/mediocre intermediate player. When we were designing Johnson Street 23 years ago, it broke my heart that no one went along with my thought for a 777' par 4 in the power tower field. Of course, such a thing was unheard of back then. But now, a quarter of a century later, Johnson Street is considered one of the best in existence and is the course on which David Wiggins, Jr. learned the sport. Granted, over the years, holes were moved to accommodate new housing beside the park, blue and gold pads were poured, adding to the basic White par 54, which is, as I said, considered to be one of the finest designs in America. Except for a very small sandbox/swing set/jungle gym playground, we did have the luxury there of being the only activity in the entire park, though some in the High Point P & R department didn't originally comprehend a disc golf course taking up the whole of the park. The playground eventually disappeared for whatever reason, probably the perceived danger of sandboxes, swing sets and jungle gyms, but that gave space for additional tees at #1 and #3, allowing us to expand all 18 holes to three tees (4, if you count the gravel and brick pavers red tees).
Sacrifice a couple of your par 4's for the overall benefit and playability of the whole 18. A course with 17 good, conflict free par 3's and one really memorable par 4 will be your best option, for casual play enjoyment AND tournament competition. I'll cite Wellspring as example.
They speak of it in hushed tones. So hushed that no one mentions or writes about it in any forums on best courses or course design. That's reverence!
jrawk
* Ace Member *
I've played Johnson Street... my sister lives right up the road. To call it "one of the best in existence" is like saying McDonalds Wendy's has the best hamburgers.
perhaps he means Johnson Street as a course has adequately endured the growth of the sport over the last decade with only little adaptation necessary.
perhaps he means Johnson Street as a course has adequately endured the growth of the sport over the last decade with only little adaptation necessary.
But he's right that it's impossible to please everyone with a course design. In part because there's never one right answer. The designer needs to be in charge, be open to input, but not open things up to design-by-committee. And you need the right person in charge.
bhadella
* Ace Member *
That 39th ranked course in the state of North Carolina sure is "one of the best in existance".
:rollseyes:
You can't measure disc golf courses by what disc golfers think about them.
Johnson Street has a lot to commend it, but I doubt most experienced disc golfers who have played a wide variety of courses would consider it "one of the best in existence": in fact, I doubt it would make most NC Advanced and Open disc golfers' top 5 NC courses.
The fact that David Wiggins learned to play disc golf as JSP is a serendipitous accident of his parents moving to High Point when he was 5 or 6 and buying a house right next to the park: he would likely be every bit as good had he grown up living right next ANY Blue level course.
Not sure I understand this: why not; and how else would you measure them?
The fact that David Wiggins learned to play disc golf as JSP is a serendipitous accident of his parents moving to High Point when he was 5 or 6 and buying a house right next to the park: he would likely be every bit as good had he grown up living right next ANY Blue level course.
Not sure I understand this: why not; and how else would you measure them?
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I'm pretty sure Mr. Sauls was being sarcastic.
Yep.
