PDGA Division Changes for 2023 Announced

[txmxer]

I tend to agree that sandbagging ratings is more myth than fact.

There is likely a skill differential in localities, but I wouldn't expect it to be significant.

 

[DavidSauls]

So can someone confirm for me that the ratings caps for age protected divisions only apply for those whom are classed as Pro? I ask as there's a 921 rated MA40 eligible player local to me, but he's still classed as an Am so is he still MA40 eligible, since I really don't want to have to face him in MA1, even though I'm really an MA2 player, but the locals would freak if I played MA2 around here, especially with a pair of local MA1 wins.

I also ask this as the way it seems to be worded on the PDGA site is that MA1/FA1 have no cap.

Yes. The caps for MA1 (as well as MA40, etc.) only apply to Pros playing Am.

You can stay amateur all your life, regardless of rating.

 

[Sheep]

I just don't see disc golf in the same way. It seems there are really two definitions of professional. The first is DGPT. Irrelevant in my world and opinion. They should be the ones concerned about their path, not the local players, clubs, or TD's. It is literally a couple hundred players.

The second is the MPO/FPO fields at local tournaments. We have fairly healthy pro divisions here and they are rarely impeded by ratings or touring pros. They do have a handful of entitled, loud, poorly behaved members, that seem to limit the number of TD's willing to host them though.

If the DGPT wants a Q school, have at it. Let them decide it, organize it, run it and fund it. More work and burden incumbent upon the local volunteer base is a non starter, IMO. I see no problems with 860 players playing local MPO divisions. I have RARELY seen this. In fact, it was course choice that have prompted it, every time. Lastly, the concept of the current, rating based divisions, being "gamed", is an old wives tale, IMO. I play and help run a lot of tournaments and bagging is not really a thing. Maybe it is different in other places.

I am not saying the current system is perfect, but I AM saying, I don't think it is broken either.

Pretty sure I didn't say anything about sandbagging to up your rating.

The one really good thing the ratings system does do is prevent seal clubbing.

But if you play a sanctioned 1 course league, it can vastly boost your rating higher. It comes down to averages over time.

As for who plays in what fields and where, maybe participate in running larger events than small town c tiers? I duno>

Pro tour vs local tournaments are completely different sides of the coin.

As for who you get to play with is different for every area too. Thats why I clearly stated the 950 here is going to be different from the 950 where you're at.
We have multiple 1000+ rated propagators here at our tournaments having local touring pro's here. While you might not have that.

The best way to fix the low rated player issue though isn't really by putting a rating requirement on open fields. but by doing a cut off on 3 day tournaments, not just 4 day tournaments.

Your 35 over par after 2 rounds, you're not coming back to win money. Go home.
Nope, Gonna have these guys out on the field again, 920 rated players going against 1030 rated guys. But we gotta hold up the whole field and cause more backups by letting these guys keep playing.

A bit of both is really the issue.

But youre also coming back to a "tour" argument with a local argument.

A tour stop is not the same as an A-Tier.
So pushing things to a pro touring card level of play is a viable option for touring.

By participating in local A-Tiers and lower tiered qualifiers, you can earn your pro field touring card to participate in elite events.
Which is how it should be.
Sorry, but people who should be playing MA3 should not be playing pro tour events.


A bit of a jumbled mess on this reply, but whatever.

 

[ru4por]

Pretty sure I didn't say anything about sandbagging to up your rating.

The one really good thing the ratings system does do is prevent seal clubbing.

But if you play a sanctioned 1 course league, it can vastly boost your rating higher. It comes down to averages over time.

As for who plays in what fields and where, maybe participate in running larger events than small town c tiers? I duno>

Pro tour vs local tournaments are completely different sides of the coin.

As for who you get to play with is different for every area too. Thats why I clearly stated the 950 here is going to be different from the 950 where you're at.
We have multiple 1000+ rated propagators here at our tournaments having local touring pro's here. While you might not have that.

The best way to fix the low rated player issue though isn't really by putting a rating requirement on open fields. but by doing a cut off on 3 day tournaments, not just 4 day tournaments.

Your 35 over par after 2 rounds, you're not coming back to win money. Go home.
Nope, Gonna have these guys out on the field again, 920 rated players going against 1030 rated guys. But we gotta hold up the whole field and cause more backups by letting these guys keep playing.

A bit of both is really the issue.

But youre also coming back to a "tour" argument with a local argument.

A tour stop is not the same as an A-Tier.
So pushing things to a pro touring card level of play is a viable option for touring.

By participating in local A-Tiers and lower tiered qualifiers, you can earn your pro field touring card to participate in elite events.
Which is how it should be.
Sorry, but people who should be playing MA3 should not be playing pro tour events.


A bit of a jumbled mess on this reply, but whatever.

All seems like a great idea for a small handful of really good players. I can't/don't build a local club/community by telling players they are not good enough. The 920 player has the right to play where they want. Perhaps AM3 players in your MPO divisions is regional. Honestly, around here they would be received as a donation in that division. I also do not see a bunch of this.

Again, in this area....a substantial disc golf community, the system works very well. Do some 1000 rated players grumble, about the idea that events are not exclusively geared toward them? Yep. But, we provide the 920 rated player a terrific golf experience. And ultimately, there is a chance that the 920 guy is out helping the club the next week or so.

Maybe we are saying the same thing, I am no longer sure. My point will remain that ANY changes, should NOT be driven from the top tiers down. And the current system is not really broken for my community.

 

[flatflip]

Most pros want as many players in their division as possible so there's more cash on the table. The mullets are going to be on the course anyway; it's just a question of whether they are fighting each other for merch or donating to the pro pool.

 

[ToddL]

So can someone confirm for me that the ratings caps for age protected divisions only apply for those whom are classed as Pro? I ask as there's a 921 rated MA40 eligible player local to me, but he's still classed as an Am so is he still MA40 eligible, since I really don't want to have to face him in MA1, even though I'm really an MA2 player, but the locals would freak if I played MA2 around here, especially with a pair of local MA1 wins.

I also ask this as the way it seems to be worded on the PDGA site is that MA1/FA1 have no cap.

As David said, but just throwing my word out as official:

The top amateur divisions are upcapped, as long as you are an amateur-class player. You can be 1050 rated in MA1, MA40, MA50, MA55, etc, as long as you haven't taken cash or registered as a pro. It's the Bobby Jones rule. You are never forced to make the move to a pro division, unless you have already been classified as a pro.
Rating-restricted amateur divisions are, of course, rating restricted (MA2, MA3, MA4).

The rating caps given in the tour standards in the Pros Playing Am table are only for classified pros who want to play amateur divisions. If you're a classified pro but rated low enough, you can play in any division you're eligible for by the rating cap.
Examples (using the 2023 caps as given in the original post in this thread):
50 year old classified pro rated 880? Eligible for MA1, MA2, MA3, MA40, and MA50. Also eligible for MPO, MP40, MP50.
65 year old classified pro rated 895? Eligible for MA1, MA2, MA40, MA50, MA55, and MA60. Not eligible for MA65 (885 cap). Also eligible for MPO, MP40, MP50, MP55, MP60, MP65.
35 year old classified pro rated 910? Eligible for MA1 and MA2. Also eligible for MPO.

 

[araytx]

Most pros want as many players in their division as possible so there's more cash on the table. The mullets are going to be on the course anyway; it's just a question of whether they are fighting each other for merch or donating to the pro pool.

Not so sure that is true. One of the reasons the PDGA Comp committee gave for no longer allowing classified Ams to accept merch while playing in pro divisions in A-tier and above was the complaint that some pros said the Ams were "taking away our cash opportunities." I know. I was part of it.

 

[DavidSauls]

Perhaps the distinction arises from fields filling. If pro divisions aren't filling, pros should want anyone to register, to plump up the payouts. But those divisions are filling, with waitlists, then those getting in shouldn't care too much, but those pros who want to get in, but find that ams-playing-up beat them to the registration, probably wish the ams weren't playing.

I'm also thinking that, at the higher levels, as more outside cash comes in, the contributions from low-rated player fees won't matter as much.

 

[Moose33]

I think what they mean is guys who typically play MPO but have almost no chance to cash.

In my area there a ton of guys who play MPO, have a "pro" membership, but are rated 915-940(one guy started when he was 880 because he could throw 500ft) and mainly play MPO because their friends do, or they like saying they are pro.

The better players love these dudes since they pump up the dollars and rarely take anything other than the occasional CTP.

 

[Moose33]

Perhaps the distinction arises from fields filling. If pro divisions aren't filling, pros should want anyone to register, to plump up the payouts. But those divisions are filling, with waitlists, then those getting in shouldn't care too much, but those pros who want to get in, but find that ams-playing-up beat them to the registration, probably wish the ams weren't playing.

I'm also thinking that, at the higher levels, as more outside cash comes in, the contributions from low-rated player fees won't matter as much.

That is something I didn't think of because until recently it wouldn't have happened, but you do see some AM divisions fill fast so guys will get into MPO because it has spots.

Several guys at my last tournament played MPO that usually play MA2, but I think most of the pros were fine with it since it wasn't going to fill.

The only downside is those guys probably did slow down pace of play a touch.

 

[Steve West]

Not so sure that is true. One of the reasons the PDGA Comp committee gave for no longer allowing classified Ams to accept merch while playing in pro divisions in A-tier and above was the complaint that some pros said the Ams were "taking away our cash opportunities." I know. I was part of it.

"Someone beat me, get them out of my division."

The #1 way for disc golf players to increase their odds of winning.

 

[ru4por]

"Someone beat me, get them out of my division."

The #1 way for disc golf players to increase their odds of winning.

Disc golf definition of sandbagging.

 

[jenb]

Disc golf definition of sandbagging.

Not sure you know what sandbagging is.

 

[araytx]

Perhaps the distinction arises from fields filling. If pro divisions aren't filling, pros should want anyone to register, to plump up the payouts. But those divisions are filling, with waitlists, then those getting in shouldn't care too much, but those pros who want to get in, but find that ams-playing-up beat them to the registration, probably wish the ams weren't playing.

I'm also thinking that, at the higher levels, as more outside cash comes in, the contributions from low-rated player fees won't matter as much.

ON its face I agree. It seems plain to me -- why wouldn't you want more players in your field? So I am going to try and present the other side -- and it's not typically about pro Open divisions, but pro age-protected. David I am going to point to my specific incident. Now, the world doesn't revolve around me; I am not sure anyone was specifically talking about me when I inquired in November of 2017 why the Ams-being-able-to-be-compensated-in-merch-while-playing-pro provision was going away. And I was told that there were pros who had complained about "these Ams" absconding with big hunks of "their purse". It definitely happened within that same timeframe.

So here's what happened. Back before the surgeries I was actually becoming a pretty decent over age-50 player. It was 2016, and at 55 years old I could compete when I was on my game at the top of Am 50 (MG1 back then) nationally, and pretty much in the middle of pro 50 locally. I was only rated in the high 930's/low 940's, but I was still on an upward trajectory then skill-wise. Again, BOTH because of the division competition locally (I wanted more challenge than MG1/MA50), and the event not filling at the MPG/MP50 level, I would often play pro grandmasters locally. One of the big A-tiers in Tyler, TX, the Piney Woods Open was in November back then, so I decided to play pro. And it was an A-tier with a good amount of added cash, plus I knew the crew from the Texas Dynamic Discs Store were the TDs, so on this tournament there would have no problem with the merchandise aspect. So I went for it. I was just hoping I could play decently in the woods where my game was strongest, and hang on at the other courses, and maybe I could get 4th or 5th out of the 11 players

After two rounds I was actually leading the event!! Ultimately I ended up finishing 2nd when the top pro around these parts threw a 1021-rated final round. But with the added cash being spread throughout for that event, 2nd place in MPG (MP50) ended up being $700. I just had the folks at the Texas Dynamic Disc Store put it on my account like they do for lots of people who want to leave and get their merch later at the store where there's more choices. BELIEVE Me, I later heard about the b____ing and m_____ing because "I took $700 away from the purse, and the TDs caught a break, too, because they were able to compensate me in stuff via the markup." Seven Hundred whole dollars!! That was the talk around here. Now my thought process was, "you know I had started playing in the pro grands for while by then from time to time, and I had gotten so crushed so many times without anybody b___ing and c_____ing about taking my entry fee, so wow, why NOW do people want to complain -- on a weekend when they couldn't (or didn't) outplay me?" HMMMM, sounded fishy to me. Of course, then in the 2018 Comp Manual (it was too late in the year for 2017 changes), this kind of situation was listed as one of four reason Ams could no longer accept merch when playing pro. After some push back, a few of us got that provision limited to only for A-tier and above, and if the TD agreed. But for me, it was goodbye Piney Woods Open pro 50 (now 60)! I can only play those divisions for fun or I have to turn pro!

 

[DavidSauls]

Boy, you caught fire at the right time.

But those pros were shortsighted. Over the long haul, they'd gain more by Ams playing Pro and bumping up the prize pool, than the occasional Am cashing (and costing each player below him a little bit, as they drop only one slot in the standings).

 

[araytx]

Boy, you caught fire at the right time.

But those pros were shortsighted. Over the long haul, they'd gain more by Ams playing Pro and bumping up the prize pool, than the occasional Am cashing (and costing each player below him a little bit, as they drop only one slot in the standings).

Exactly what I thought. I pretty sure that the MP50s gained more over the long haul.

The part I did agree with the Comp Committee about, was an event where a TD isn't a dealer and has maybe purchased only relatively enough merch for their event to cover the registered Am payout. I agree that having another player "demanding" merch in that scenario is problematic for the TD. But that's where the TD agreement should factor in. Most TD's, if able, are going to relish paying out merch rather than cash.

 

[DavidSauls]

Exactly what I thought. I pretty sure that the MP50s gained more over the long haul.

The part I did agree with the Comp Committee about, was an event where a TD isn't a dealer and has maybe purchased only relatively enough merch for their event to cover the registered Am payout. I agree that having another player "demanding" merch in that scenario is problematic for the TD. But that's where the TD agreement should factor in. Most TD's, if able, are going to relish paying out merch rather than cash.

Not a format I've seen around here. Usually there are vouchers and lots of discs to choose from -- or trophy-only, where it doesn't matter.

But I can see where it would be a problem elsewhere.

 

[Sheep]

Not a format I've seen around here. Usually there are vouchers and lots of discs to choose from -- or trophy-only, where it doesn't matter.

But I can see where it would be a problem elsewhere.

Vouchers are a sly way of paying cash that circumvent the rules.

So, you have payouts in vouchers.
The club gets a percentage of the money, and the vendors who cash in the vouchers get the other percentage.

It works good when you have an area with multiple places that accept vouchers.

Personally, I don't really care for merch packs or any of that stuff playing. I'm paying 60 dollars for a round, and 40 of its going to merch I don't want and just give away, and cannot re-sell because of the stamp or just nobody wants it.
It's a waste to me. But for newer players, merch is killer, especially if their disc selection is small, or they have not figured out their brands or favorite discs.

I have 400+ discs here in my library from multiple brands that I throw. I know the brands I don't like as well, And when you keep getting discs you dont want from brands you dont throw, it gets even more frustrating.
I don't need anymore Trillogy discs. I've given away SO many.

I usually try and find kids to give them to, its really the best thing you can do.

 

[DavidSauls]

Vouchers are a sly way of paying cash that circumvent the rules.

So, you have payouts in vouchers.
The club gets a percentage of the money, and the vendors who cash in the vouchers get the other percentage.

It works good when you have an area with multiple places that accept vouchers.

Personally, I don't really care for merch packs or any of that stuff playing. I'm paying 60 dollars for a round, and 40 of its going to merch I don't want and just give away, and cannot re-sell because of the stamp or just nobody wants it.
It's a waste to me. But for newer players, merch is killer, especially if their disc selection is small, or they have not figured out their brands or favorite discs.

I have 400+ discs here in my library from multiple brands that I throw. I know the brands I don't like as well, And when you keep getting discs you dont want from brands you dont throw, it gets even more frustrating.
I don't need anymore Trillogy discs. I've given away SO many.

I usually try and find kids to give them to, its really the best thing you can do.

Around here, the vouchers are generally for on-site redemption. Whether 3rd-party vendors or TDs themselves. The only difference is that instead of players winning pre-selected merchandise, they get a choice and a better chance of getting what they actually want.

 

[BillFleming]

Vouchers are a sly way of paying cash that circumvent the rules.

So, you have payouts in vouchers.
The club gets a percentage of the money, and the vendors who cash in the vouchers get the other percentage.

It works good when you have an area with multiple places that accept vouchers.

Personally, I don't really care for merch packs or any of that stuff playing. I'm paying 60 dollars for a round, and 40 of its going to merch I don't want and just give away, and cannot re-sell because of the stamp or just nobody wants it.
It's a waste to me. But for newer players, merch is killer, especially if their disc selection is small, or they have not figured out their brands or favorite discs.

I have 400+ discs here in my library from multiple brands that I throw. I know the brands I don't like as well, And when you keep getting discs you dont want from brands you dont throw, it gets even more frustrating.
I don't need anymore Trillogy discs. I've given away SO many.

I usually try and find kids to give them to, its really the best thing you can do.

My peeve is player's packs that only have distance drivers. Like you said, most players end up set on what brand/discs they throw. It's the newer players who would benefit from discs in player's packs....but they shouldn't be getting distance drivers. I know when I started tournaments, that's all I got and some still just sit on my shelf.