Pdga has finally announced new rules on transgender competition

[Skamanda]

Again, this is drifting from original post...

I had a co-worker 3 years ago who is transgender...I heard about their struggles often...this affected me personally...and I empathized with their struggles...but understanding some ones struggles and believing that they are right in their belief is a different thing...

Allow me to speak for the transgender co-worker who is blissfully no longer stuck working with you.

You didn't understand them, or their struggles, one teeny tiny bit.

If you did, you wouldn't suggest that you have any right to suggest they're in the wrong for accepting who they are.

 

[foxdawg10]

The majority of Americans once thought owning black people like they were cattle was the best thing for the economy.

The majority of a certain party in Germany a while back once thought entire races of people were better off exterminated.

Do you understand yet how being in the majority doesn't make you right yet?

This argument is complete and absolute trash.

There was a war about this...it's convenient that you didn't mention that.

 

[Skamanda]

This argument is complete and absolute trash.

There was a war about this...it's convenient that you didn't mention that.

There was a war about the other one, too. The whole world showed up.

That doesn't make my point any less true.

Being in the majority does not automatically make you right.

Nice job getting triggered by people being called out for being racist, but letting the Nazis slide, though.

 

[davetherocketguy]

I'm skipping a whole crap ton of this thread because I've got to leave for putting league in like -8 minutes, but I wanted to comment on this particular sentence.

At this point the PDGA has stated that they believe we have an unfair advantage. It doesn't matter at which level, the precedent has been set.

If we show up to an A tier, hell or a C tier, or even a local unsanctioned event, that declaration has been made. We will be resented, shunned, and treated as pariahs if we attempt to play FA/FPO. This is 100% a given at this point. I'm even having to have discussions with the wonderful ladies league I played in last weekend. That's the only round I've ever been able to play in the women's division - and it will probably be the last. Neither the league admins, nor I, want them to lose all of their regular players because they feel that I have an unfair advantage, whether I win or not (for the record, I lost by a stroke on Sunday).

So yeah, we're allowed to play, if we want to deal with the jeers, harassment, anger, and resentment that will be guaranteed to be leveled at us.

I would like to think that my club is above such nastiness. However, if that's not the case PM me here and I will come up with a solution. I've done it before with a couple of misogynistic a-holes in our league. Regardless of how I or anyone else feels about the PDGA and the topic altogether you should be able to play Sand Ridge events without fear of ridicule.

And before any of my detractors jump in here...this is not about being a white knight or any of that nonsense. It's about doing the right thing. Just like seeing a car wreck on the side of the road. You don't just drive by and say, "not my problem" the right thing to do is at the very least stop and call 911. I think everyone here can agree there is no reason at all to be nasty to each other on the course over this topic...right?

 

[foxdawg10]

There was a war about the other one, too. The whole world showed up.

That doesn't make my point any less true.

Being in the majority does not automatically make you right.

Nice job getting triggered by people being called out for being racist, but letting the Nazis slide, though.

Wow. Your message is getting lost here.

Have a nice day.

 

[biscoe]

We have, and will continue to follow the strictest letter of the PDGA rules. It is our responsibility to the players in our leagues and tournaments, in addition to the paying members of our club. We shall await the procedures set forth by the PDGA. Gender identification is not enough, if the player in question has transitioned. Is the gender listed on the PDGA database, going to be enough for sating the fear of same rando 866 rated AM3, reporting the FA2 player, identifying as male, having undergone no transition. It is likely that her looks alone, will strike terror into the hearts of the intolerant. You might say no, won't happen, but I think this board alone, has shown it likely.

It is now the TD's job to pull aside the accused player and have difficult discussion with her, because has cropped hair? I find that uncomfortable and inappropriate, as another human. I am initially resentful for the PDGA putting me, or any TD, in that position.

The TD's will be able to fall back on passing the buck to the PDGA. The PDGA will tell them what divisions players are eligible for same as they have for years.

 

[biscoe]

The ruling for lower level events (to my limited understanding) will not effect the eligibility of trans women who have undergone treatment for the prescribed period of time- their T levels will tend to meet the requirement at that point (again within my limited understanding). I don't think the anti-trans crowd has quite figured this out yet. It will however effect the desire a trans woman may have to compete in events at all. Color that a lose lose for the PDGA- neither constituency is going to wind up happy. The lower level ruling is likely legal as well since it provides a "goal to hit" regarding eligibility.

The Elite ban on Natalie and Chloe (at this point) is likely to be illegal a lot of places and will imo wind up in court. The idea that the Elite FPO players input was taken heavily into account is probably not fully accurate. The old adage "follow the money" may apply.

 

[Shallows]

The ruling for lower level events (to my limited understanding) will not effect the eligibility of trans women who have undergone treatment for the prescribed period of time- their T levels will tend to meet the requirement at that point (again within my limited understanding). I don't think the anti-trans crowd has quite figured this out yet. It will however effect the desire a trans woman may have to compete in events at all. Color that a lose lose for the PDGA- neither constituency is going to wind up happy. The lower level ruling is likely legal as well since it provides a "goal to hit" regarding eligibility.

The Elite ban on Natalie and Chloe (at this point) is likely to be illegal a lot of places and will imo wind up in court. The idea that the Elite FPO players input was taken heavily into account is probably not fully accurate. The old adage "follow the money" may apply.

FINA's similar policy has already cost them $1 million+ in legal fees.

 

[biscoe]

States with laws against discrimination in public accommodations based on gender identity: California, Colorado, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Minnesota, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington. This is only a partial list as the document I grabbed it from was from 2010. I think it applies to Virginia as well under the Virginia Values Act of 2020.

 

[biscoe]

5 elite events plus Worlds occur in one or the other of those states.

 

[robdeforge]

5 elite events plus Worlds occur in one or the other of those states.

worth noting that Vermont would have an elite event at Smuggler's notch if they weren't hosting worlds. so it could easily be 6 elite events plus worlds

 

[dmoore1998]

Are these the same?

For PDGA Amateur Majors, Pro Master Majors and all other PDGA events sanctioned at A-Tier level and below the requirements regarding a player's level of testosterone have been lowered from under 10 nmol/L for one year to under 2 nmol/L for two years.
Players are only eligible to compete in the gender-based FPO division at PDGA Pro Majors (Champions Cup, USWDGC, European Open, and Pro Worlds) if they began medical transition during Tanner Stage 2 or before age 12, whichever is later. The player must also continuously maintain a total testosterone level in serum below 2.0 nmol/L.

Edit: I see your point now. Fpo and fa1.
I was keying on the Majors distinction.
Which, is still stupid.

It IS stupid, IMO it's actually more stupid than if they had just made an actual distinction between all amateur and all pro...instead of "all amateur and nearly all pro follow this rule...but this tiny sliver of pro functions completely differently than everything else".

 

[Cgkdisc]

As a general comment, in life endeavors where you must qualify to get some restricted benefit such as a driver's license, international travel (passport/inoculations), vote, car loan, credit card, or compete in a "protected" division in a sport, the officials with the authority to grant that benefit typically ask to see or receive document(s) to confirm that you qualify for that benefit. Transgender legal challenges will likely prod sports authorities to require qualification proof from everyone who wishes to compete in any of their restricted/protected divisions if they don't already have confirmation on file.

For example, the PDGA may soon need to require all players who wish to compete in "F" divisions provide proof they qualify such as a birth certificate or real ID/driver's license, not just those who transitioned and need ongoing medical test results to remain qualified. Likewise, all of us who wish to qualify for age restricted divisions, both Master or Junior, may soon need to provide proof beyond just entering our date of birth on the registration or membership form.

 

[biscoe]

It IS stupid, IMO it's actually more stupid than if they had just made an actual distinction between all amateur and all pro...instead of "all amateur and nearly all pro follow this rule...but this tiny sliver of pro functions completely differently than everything else".

billionaires don't like to be told no...

 

[Three Putt]

At this point the PDGA has stated that they believe we have an unfair advantage. It doesn't matter at which level, the precedent has been set.

If we show up to an A tier, hell or a C tier, or even a local unsanctioned event, that declaration has been made. We will be resented, shunned, and treated as pariahs if we attempt to play FA/FPO.

The ruling for lower level events (to my limited understanding) will not effect the eligibility of trans women who have undergone treatment for the prescribed period of time- their T levels will tend to meet the requirement at that point (again within my limited understanding). I don't think the anti-trans crowd has quite figured this out yet. It will however effect the desire a trans woman may have to compete in events at all. Color that a lose lose for the PDGA- neither constituency is going to wind up happy. The lower level ruling is likely legal as well since it provides a "goal to hit" regarding eligibility.

I think a lot of people have never faced the chilling effect of "you legally can be here, but you're not welcome" (at least not from the side where you're not welcome) so they really are not grasping this.

Are a lot of women who are transgender still eligible to play in non-major events? Sure. Will they be welcome? It's a case by case thing but largely no, the PDGA just put a target on their back. The anti-trans crowd will be emboldened by the PDGA ruling to make them uncomfortable and a lot of TD's either are part of the anti-trans crowd or won't have the backbone to stand up to them.

That might not matter that much since women who are transgender probably understand "you legally can be here, but you're not welcome" better than anyone these days; I'm going to guess that this policy just ran off the majority of them. They may still be eligible to play, but why would they support the PDGA now?

The ruling might be limited to majors, but it's really a "Trans not allowed" sign hanging on the entire sport.

I spent 25 years promoting disc golf to people, telling everybody and anybody they can play and be welcome because that's what we always were; we were this messy demographic melting pot that was wonderfully diverse and really hard to describe. We were like that because we were a small niche sport with no money and there was no reason to turn anyone away. Now all of a sudden there is a little money (laughably little by pro sports standards but a lot by disc golf standards) and what do we do? We exclude people. :\ It's a sad, sad day for disc golf and one we will regret.

 

[deadbody]

I niced 3 putts post. But I felt dirty. Not because it isn't perfectly stated. But because the whole idea is so wrong.

The PDGA and everyone who still supports it is at least complicit in promoting bigotry against a vulnerable group. A group that already has a troublingly high level of self harm. A group that isn't asking for anything other than acceptance. Just accept that they exist, and treat them like you would any other human. Its not difficult. I'm not asking you to do math, or bake a wedding cake. Just don't be ****ty to other humans.

JFC why are people so bad?

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

Really well said, Three Putt. Thank you for that.

 

[zenbot]

I think that everyone has said their piece and the mod staff doesn't have the bandwidth to continue to moderate this thread for a third day.

DGCR still supports the transgender disc golf community. If you insist on the need to speak to the contrary, there are many other places online for you. Just not here.