PDGA data comparing player skill by sex

[araytx]

The issue I see with comparing MPO to FPO....or even males to females in sports...is getting the terminology correct.

Skill - males and females have the same skills....can they hit their lines? Yes. Can they make the different shots (hyzer, hyzer flip, straight, anhyzer, etc). Yes. Their SKILLS are the same.

Ability - this is a different issue. This is what lets males throw a disc 600 feet and females throw 400 feet. (Numbers made up for purpose of explaining the difference). Give Paul McBeth and Paige Pierce the same disc on an open field....I'd bet Paul will throw it farther than Paige....easily.

If this discussion is intended to be about trans players....it has kind of been proven. Read about Lia Thomas. She's a trans woman swimmer. Been winning everything since going from male to female. And her winnings have been by quite a bit. Right now, no one really knows what to do with trans athletes because it does seem that they have an advantage. Currently, it seems the trans person has to be tested for hormone levels and they have to be at a specified level before they can compete in their 'new' gender division. I believe that is so men who can't compete well in male sports can't just identify as a female and complete in female sports. But, the hormone level test really doesn't seem to insure a level playing field. With athletes like Lia in the news, we should see better decisions on how to treat trans athletes in regards to what division they can participate in. Maybe we'll see men, women, trans-men, trans-female divisions one day.

Any extrapolations/generalizations based upon the Lia Thomas example are clearly oversimplified. She began transitioning at age 19/20. Science can likely prove that there are developmental differences in those who complete puberty, thus transition completely post puberty vs 3/4-puberty vs half-way through puberty vs early puberty vs pre-puberty. And all those people exist. So making any GENERAL or over-arching conclusion(s) based upon someone who was fully adult before transitioning is not one that can be applied fairly across all trans-athletes.

 

[Skamanda]

Any extrapolations/generalizations based upon the Lia Thomas example are clearly oversimplified.

They're also based on outright lies about her performance.

https://www.pinkmantaray.com/resources/lia

 

[jenb]

Any extrapolations/generalizations based upon the Lia Thomas example are clearly oversimplified. She began transitioning at age 19/20. Science can likely prove that there are developmental differences in those who complete puberty, thus transition completely post puberty vs 3/4-puberty vs half-way through puberty vs early puberty vs pre-puberty. And all those people exist. So making any GENERAL or over-arching conclusion(s) based upon someone who was fully adult before transitioning is not one that can be applied fairly across all trans-athletes.

As also supported by the video that Jupiter boy posted, amount of time on blockers/hrt and/or post gonadectomy is a factor. Most data was generated for fairly recent transitioners, with the little data on long term transitioners showing any residual advantage is completely eliminated in the long run. How long is unknown. But I'll mention that there were no optics issues in the Olympics for many years when they required 2 years of medical transition, and the optics issues appeared shortly after they reduced it to one year.

 

[Skamanda]

little data on long term transitioners showing any residual advantage is completely eliminated in the long run. How long is unknown.

It's anecdotal, but it took about 3 1/2 years for me to feel like I'd stopped losing more and more strength. But, I moved multiple households worth of stuff, multiple times during one of those years, and I do a lot of work to keep my core strong because my spine is deformed (and I need the muscles to keep it from pinching nerves), so I had a fair bit of strength training counteracting the atrophy. 2 years is probably a good estimate for average people...

For athletes, it's always going to be a big grey area, depending on what their sport requires of them in general, and additionally to be competitive - but that's true of cisgender athletes, as well. Most cisgender athletes are well above the average level of fitness and strength.

 

[jenb]

It's anecdotal, but it took about 3 1/2 years for me to feel like I'd stopped losing more and more strength. But, I moved multiple households worth of stuff, multiple times during one of those years, and I do a lot of work to keep my core strong because my spine is deformed (and I need the muscles to keep it from pinching nerves), so I had a fair bit of strength training counteracting the atrophy. 2 years is probably a good estimate for average people...

For athletes, it's always going to be a big grey area, depending on what their sport requires of them in general, and additionally to be competitive - but that's true of cisgender athletes, as well. Most cisgender athletes are well above the average level of fitness and strength.

And yet, the suspension for women caught doping is two years regardless of Olympic sport or event. And it's not just a punitive measure. It's also to allow time for residual advantage gained to diminish.

 

[Skamanda]

And yet, the suspension for women caught doping is two years regardless of Olympic sport or event. And it's not just a punitive measure. It's also to allow time for residual advantage gained to diminish.

Doping is chemical. My levels were in the right range well before then, but it took that long for my muscles to atrophy.

 

[jenb]

Doping is chemical. My levels were in the right range well before then, but it took that long for my muscles to atrophy.

Testosterone is chemical too. Doping allows ciswomen and others to develop additional muscle mass, which takes just as long to diminish as for transwomen absent magic.