PDGA data comparing player skill by sex

[roblee]

Currently the PDGA has competition divisions divided into 2 major categories; male & female. Generally, our sex (male or female) is determined at conception by the combination of sex chromosomes we receive from our parents and we have no choice. Fast forward to today and the desire and ability to identify and live with a gender identity different than the sex determined at birth is very much a part of our evolving society. Enough intro.

Lots of DG discussion about allowing transitioned genetic males (hormone therapy &/or surgery) to play in female divisions. Science is my education, training, and career so I looked for something simple to answer the null hypothesis: There is no difference between the skill level of professional male disc golfers and professional female disc golfers. Sure everybody knows males are better, right? I just wanted to see this quantified. This is not a Steve West analysis, it's just some basic math based on PDGA ratings. A major assumption is that the rating system is a valid way to measure a players skill set no matter who you are nor where you play.

Looking only at current MPO & FPO PDGA members:
There are 6,741 MPOs (all classified as male) & 639 FPOs (all classified as female). Highest rated MPO is 1051. Highest rated FPO is 981. 14% (973) of MPOs are rated 981 or higher. Using a 934 rating as a benchmark (Highest rating allowed in Mixed Amateur Intermediate) 64% (4,332) of MPOs are rated >934 and 5% (34) of FPOs are rated >934. My amateur analysis indicates the null hypothesis is not supported by these data.

This may have no bearing on transgender division classification. Just something I was curious about. The PDGA Medical Committee has formed a subcommittee for Gender-based Divisions so recon the dialog is just beginning.

 

[txmxer]

Who said there is no difference in skill sets between MPO and FPO? Or male and female athletes in any sport?

Male athletes have a variety of physical advantages. When an athlete transitions to female and complies with the rules for trans athletes, have those advantages been nullified to a reasonable extent?

You aren't going to find that answer in the ratings. .

 

[Rastnav]

Enough intro.

Not actually enough intro.

 

[ru4por]

Currently the PDGA has competition divisions divided into 2 major categories; male & female. Generally, our sex (male or female) is determined at conception by the combination of sex chromosomes we receive from our parents and we have no choice. Fast forward to today and the desire and ability to identify and live with a gender identity different than the sex determined at birth is very much a part of our evolving society. Enough intro.

Lots of DG discussion about allowing transitioned genetic males (hormone therapy &/or surgery) to play in female divisions. Science is my education, training, and career so I looked for something simple to answer the null hypothesis: There is no difference between the skill level of professional male disc golfers and professional female disc golfers. Sure everybody knows males are better, right? I just wanted to see this quantified. This is not a Steve West analysis, it's just some basic math based on PDGA ratings. A major assumption is that the rating system is a valid way to measure a players skill set no matter who you are nor where you play.

Looking only at current MPO & FPO PDGA members:
There are 6,741 MPOs (all classified as male) & 639 FPOs (all classified as female). Highest rated MPO is 1051. Highest rated FPO is 981. 14% (973) of MPOs are rated 981 or higher. Using a 934 rating as a benchmark (Highest rating allowed in Mixed Amateur Intermediate) 64% (4,332) of MPOs are rated >934 and 5% (34) of FPOs are rated >934. My amateur analysis indicates the null hypothesis is not supported by these data.

This may have no bearing on transgender division classification. Just something I was curious about. The PDGA Medical Committee has formed a subcommittee for Gender-based Divisions so recon the dialog is just beginning.

Nope and nope.

 

[DavidSauls]

Generally, our sex (male or female) is determined at conception by the combination of sex chromosomes we receive from our parents and we have no choice.

Bearing in mind that no one is checked for chromosomes at birth, and there is more variety than XX/XY.

 

[roblee]

Who said there is no difference in skill sets between MPO and FPO? Or male and female athletes in any sport?"

Not me. Just presented some valid data to support conventional wisdom.

[QUOTE} You aren't going to find that answer in the ratings. .[/QUOTE]

Agree. As stated, that was not my intention.

 

[roblee]

Bearing in mind that no one is checked for chromosomes at birth, and there is more variety than XX/XY.

I can say with some certainty that no one is checked for chromosomes when they register for PDGA membership but some babies are karyotyped before and/or upon birth if deemed medically necessary of if the parents request.

Initially I included some statements about sex chromosome variants (XXY, XYY, OX), but decided it was too wordy. Those conditions are rare and not considered for this exercise. As stated I used only the information submitted by MPO & FMO players when they registered.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

 

[txmxer]

Not me. Just presented some valid data to support conventional wisdom.

[QUOTE} You aren't going to find that answer in the ratings. .

Agree. As stated, that was not my intention.[/QUOTE]

I guess I'm not following what point you are trying to make. If you are intending to nullify or support a particular hypothesis, please state clearly what the hypothesis is and what you intend to prove or your conclusion is.

 

[DavidSauls]

I can say with some certainty that no one is checked for chromosomes when they register for PDGA membership but some babies are karyotyped before and/or upon birth if deemed medically necessary of if the parents request.

(1) Nor are people checked for reproductive anatomy when they register with the PDGA.

(2) I stand corrected, and educated, on the baby testing, and amend my statement to "very few".

 

[DavidSauls]

Otherwise, what's the point? I'm pretty sure we're all in agreement than the MPO division, on average, plays better than the FPO. Are you setting up a trans- debate, or one supporting unequal payouts based on raw performance?

 

[roblee]

roblee
'There is no difference between the skill level of professional male disc golfers and professional female disc golfers.

Nope ....

Agree, ru4por. That is not my opinion nor conclusion. It is a structured statement in a form (Null Hypothesis) that used to be the conventional way to begin a statistical analysis to compare 2 populations. i.e. say there is no difference except by chance then collect data, analyze them, and support or reject the Null. I don't see it used much now. I was trying to sound learned but guess it just shows my age.

=========================================================
roblee
"A major assumption is that the rating system is a valid way to measure a players skill set no matter who you are nor where you play.

"[/QUOTE]=ru4por;3811884] ...and Nope[/QUOTE]

Are you saying that the PDGA rating system does not measure a players relative skill as compared to others? Is there a better method that would help me test this hypothesis?

 

[Rastnav]

Ok, you've established that ratings data supports the conclusion that Mixed Professional Open players out score Female Professional Open players. Something that, by the way, was already well established, long ago. Congratulations, you've added a pseudo-scientific sheen (as you have made no attempt to control for any confounders) to something that did not need it.

How is this valuable? In any way?

Not only that, you added a biased , incomplete, and completely non-scientific preamble that you are attempting to claim has nothing to do with the analysis below it. This is patently absurd.

 

[txmxer]

roblee
'There is no difference between the skill level of professional male disc golfers and professional female disc golfers.



Agree, ru4por. That is not my opinion nor conclusion. It is a structured statement in a form (Null Hypothesis) that used to be the conventional way to begin a statistical analysis to compare 2 populations. i.e. say there is no difference except by chance then collect data, analyze them, and support or reject the Null. I don't see it used much now. I was trying to sound learned but guess it just shows my age.

=========================================================
roblee
"A major assumption is that the rating system is a valid way to measure a players skill set no matter who you are nor where you play.

We still don't know where you want to take this discussion, but your stated null hypothesis moved the discussion forward .0000001%.

Your whole diatribe would be the equivalent of discussing whether men are taller than women on average, starting from the hypothesis that men and women on average are the same height and then pulling statistics to nullify the hypothesis.

It's not a question, so how about moving forward with your real point?

 

[BillFleming]

There is no difference between the skill level of professional male disc golfers and professional female disc golfers.

I left out the rest of your post to focus on that one line. I don't know if there is a difference in 'skill' level...what is the definition of skill level you are using?

However, there is a difference in ABILITY. Take the current two best players, both are 5x World Champs. Paul McBeth and Paige Pierce. How do you think they would do head-to-head, same course, same tees? I can tell you. Paul would easily outplay Paige. The main thing is that he has more distance than she does.

Sure, Paige can outthrow a lot of male players....but stacked up against her 'male equivalent' she doesn't have a chance. I've watched lots of tournament videos and seen players at tournaments I volunteered at....men definitely have an advantage over the females. That's the main reason FPO (and the rest of the Female only divisions) exists. If men and women had the same ability, there would only be the Mixed division and everyone would play in it.

That's also why most courses have tees that are for MPO and tees for FPO.

 

[roblee]

Nope and nope.

Otherwise, what's the point? I'm pretty sure we're all in agreement than the MPO division, on average, plays better than the FPO. Are you setting up a trans- debate, or one supporting unequal payouts based on raw performance?

Thought I stated my point. It is just to use the only data base available to me to test the conventional wisdom that males are more skilled DGers than females. I've not seen this quantified before, just often stated as fact. Just because something seems obvious doesn't make it so. Scientific process: wonder, gather data, analyze, rinse & repeat.

 

[txmxer]

so, /end thread/

?

 

[DavidSauls]

Next: Summer days tend to be warmer than winter days, in the U.S. Then, clouds are usually higher than oceans. There's no end to what we might learn, with enough statistical analysis.

 

[roblee]

Ok, you've established that ratings data supports the conclusion that Mixed Professional Open players out score Female Professional Open players. Something that, by the way, was already well established, long ago. Congratulations, you've added a pseudo-scientific sheen (as you have made no attempt to control for any confounders) to something that did not need it.

How is this valuable? In any way?

Not only that, you added a biased , incomplete, and completely non-scientific preamble that you are attempting to claim has nothing to do with the analysis below it. This is patently absurd.

Ouch! I concede that you have a better understanding of the the scientific process and civil discourse than me.

 

[BillFleming]

The issue I see with comparing MPO to FPO....or even males to females in sports...is getting the terminology correct.

Skill - males and females have the same skills....can they hit their lines? Yes. Can they make the different shots (hyzer, hyzer flip, straight, anhyzer, etc). Yes. Their SKILLS are the same.

Ability - this is a different issue. This is what lets males throw a disc 600 feet and females throw 400 feet. (Numbers made up for purpose of explaining the difference). Give Paul McBeth and Paige Pierce the same disc on an open field....I'd bet Paul will throw it farther than Paige....easily.

If this discussion is intended to be about trans players....it has kind of been proven. Read about Lia Thomas. She's a trans woman swimmer. Been winning everything since going from male to female. And her winnings have been by quite a bit. Right now, no one really knows what to do with trans athletes because it does seem that they have an advantage. Currently, it seems the trans person has to be tested for hormone levels and they have to be at a specified level before they can compete in their 'new' gender division. I believe that is so men who can't compete well in male sports can't just identify as a female and complete in female sports. But, the hormone level test really doesn't seem to insure a level playing field. With athletes like Lia in the news, we should see better decisions on how to treat trans athletes in regards to what division they can participate in. Maybe we'll see men, women, trans-men, trans-female divisions one day.