PDGA vs DGCR rating

[renoob]

Horsmanm's thread got me curious about this. Is there a strong correlation between PDGA and DGCR ratings (I tried searching)? Post both if you have them and let's see!

 

[Buchajs1]

Pdga 808
Dgcr 862
I havent played a pdga in a while though

 

[simpletwist]

While I didn't renew my PDGA membership for this year, my rating was (I think) around 875. My DGCR rating is 882. While not perfect for me at least its close.

I think its very helpful for those who have never entered at sanctioned tourney event and those who would just rather not join the PDGA to determine what Division they should compete at if the do enter a sanctioned event. But you have to religiously enter your scores good and bad for it to be meaningful.

 

[wake911]

mine aren't even close. But, since i only put non tourney rounds in DGCR, and it's more based on casual rounds at courses I know it is substantially higher. My PDGA rating is based on my tourney nerves (suck) as well as playing in many tourneys at courses I've never played before.

 

[bhadella]

PDGA 900. DGCR 929.

I just looked up the last 6 rounds I've loaded and compared them to SSAs that we gathered on those courses during the 2012 Worlds.

Course/Configuration: Nevin Short + New 11, Idlewild Long, Reedy Short + Par 4 on 13, Reedy Short, Renaissance Gold, Winget
PDGA Rating: 886, 952, 906, 929, 953, 922 = 924.667 avg
DGCR Rating: 934, 975, 931, 963, 919, 925 = 941.166 avg

The DGCR rating is higher than the PDGA rating on every course other than Renny Gold. I wonder what factor is creating the deviation; distance, level of foliage or OB?

 

[Dave242]

DGCR Player ratings are derived directly from our Scratch Scoring Estimate....and, the SSE calculation has basically 1 variable that adjusts SSE for any given course....and there are only 3 increments in that variable. For any given length of course, there is Lightly-, Moderately- and Heavily- Wooded.

For a course on the longer end (say 6-7,000'), that can result in SSE's in increments of 6. For example SSE=48 for Lightly, 54 for Moderately and 60 for Heavily.

On a Moderately Wooded course, if it matched "perfectly", SSE would match SSA perfectly at 54. But it is a little less wooded it would be high by 2-3 throws (SSE=54, but SSA=51) and visa versa for if it was a little more wooded than Moderately (SSE=54, SSA=57).

Here is some data to look at from Pro Worlds 2013. The far right column compares DGCR SSE with PDGA SSA

 

[scarpfish]

But you have to religiously enter your scores good and bad for it to be meaningful.

You can religiously enter scores and it can still be way off if you play courses with lots of artificial OB or a lot of nine holers.

 

[sisyphus]

PDGA 885 & rising
DGCR 932

I do play a lot of nine hole rounds.
It was also an interesting exercise to compare sanctioned events ratings. I do think the tournaments with a lot of artificial OB's had the most discrepancy with PDGA>DGCR. I think the wooded courses work a little bit the other way. And definitely casual rounds run about three strokes better than tourney rounds for me!

 

[Lewis]

So far, everybody's DCGR rating is higher than their PDGA rating. :\

 

[scarpfish]

So far, everybody's DCGR rating is higher than their PDGA rating. :\

PDGA 878
DGCR 839


Mine is almost 40 points the other direction. I'd suspect that the truth lies somewhere between those two numbers.

I only have six PDGA rounds. (How I'm seeing my PDGA rating, I don't know, as I'm not current). When two rounds from last November fall off, its going to plummet unless I can replicate them.

MY DGCR rating gets bogged down because I frequently play a nine hole course with a SSE of 21.3, and a course loaded with artificial OB (which the DGCR formula doesn't take into account) with a supposed SSE of 47.1. At our league there on Sunday, the best score was a 60. During our tournament last month, with at least sixty players, it only gave up five sub-50 rounds, and only about fifteen under-54 rounds.

 

[simpletwist]

You can religiously enter scores and it can still be way off if you play courses with lots of artificial OB or a lot of nine holers.

Hmm... Interesting.

 

[JR Stengele]

pdga - 959
dgcr - 978

I feel my game is truly the average of the two.

 

[jeverett]

The '9-holer' problem *should* be mostly fixed at this point. We caught an error with how the extra length-based scalar was being applied to non-18-hole courses (i.e. their SSE's were being overly-reduced due to the (relative) short length of those courses compared to the 'average' 18-hole course), so SSE's for 9-hole courses went up a bit (e.g. you shouldn't see many cases of needing 100% birdies (or even better than that) to get to scratch anymore.

What's potentially not fixed (yet), but fixable if you report it, is the issue of courses where the SSE's are still coming out very off. This is typically due to things like lots of artificial OB, forced layups, etc. Thankfully, Timg implemented a method for internally setting which of the three SSE formulas (mildly technical, moderately technical, and very technical) are used for each course independently of the 'foliage' value for that course. You just need to let us know roughly what the SSE *should* look like for a specific course/layout, and Timg can adjust it. It still may not be a perfect fit, but it is usually possible to at least get the SSE closer to 'accurate'.

 

[tistoude]

PDGA 982
DGCR 988

Even though the numbers are close I get some wildly inaccurate ratings from DGCR. Luckily they are wildy off in both directions and net to close to my PDGA rating.

Examples:
This past weekend in Fairmont 1st round on Seth Burton. PDGA 997/DGCR 959. Second round PDGA 990/DGCR 945

My weekly league at Schenley I regularly shoot in the mid 40's. 44 on DGCR is rated 1053, but people who are PDGA rated from 940 to 975, have shot 41's or 42's so that would mean they are putting up rounds close to 1100 rated.

 

[renoob]

Neat. It looks kind of close to 1:1 linear so far.

 

[bhadella]

What's potentially not fixed (yet), but fixable if you report it, is the issue of courses where the SSE's are still coming out very off. This is typically due to things like lots of artificial OB, forced layups, etc. Thankfully, Timg implemented a method for internally setting which of the three SSE formulas (mildly technical, moderately technical, and very technical) are used for each course independently of the 'foliage' value for that course. You just need to let us know roughly what the SSE *should* look like for a specific course/layout, and Timg can adjust it. It still may not be a perfect fit, but it is usually possible to at least get the SSE closer to 'accurate'.

Neato. For the courses that had a SSA & SSE from the same configuration; I noticed that the "Moderately Wooded" courses had a much closer correlation while the "Heavily Wooded" courses had an overstated SSE here in Charlotte. I pulled the data for comparison:

Moderately Wooded (excluding Renny): Bradford (SSA 49.5, SSE 50.3), Eastway (SSA 49.5, SSE 49.6), Sugaw Creek (SSA 49.7, SSE 49.5) Average Moderate Wooded (SSA 49.6, SSE 49.8)

Heavily Wooded: Hornets Nest (SSA 54.0, SSE 56.9), Idlewild (SSA 53, SSE 55.3), Nevin (SSA 59.2, SSE 63.7), Reedy Original (SSA 47, SSE 49.5),RL Smith (SSA 52.4, SSE 52.7), Winget (SSA 49.6, SSE 49.7) Average Heavily Wooded (SSA 52.5, SSE 54.6)

The outlier to the data is Rennaissance Gold. Renaissance Gold is providing a much higher SSA when compared to SSE from previous tournaments (69.8 vs 65.7). I expect that this deviation is created by the number of OB opportunities and very fast greens at Renny. I think it would be a good course to have a "very technical" rating.

In general, either the factor for "Heavily Wooded" is too great or we are too lenient in the Charlotte area to consider a course "Heavily Wooded".

Charlotte area SSA info:
http://www.charlottedgc.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Charlotte_Area_Courses_Rev1.pdf

 

[jimbosprint]

939 - DGCR (705 rounds in scorebook)
934 - PDGA (9 tournament rounds)

close enough for me!

 

[ScottyLove]

931 - DGCR - 45 Rounds
879 - PDGA - 36 Rounds

Some overlap in rounds and some are close and some are not. PDGA is lagging as I'm shooting lots better these days. Expecting decent bump come Oct. 1.

I just started entering rounds recently into DGCR and PDGA goes back a year when I was still new...

 

[Dave242]

Moderately Wooded (excluding Renny): Bradford (SSA 49.5, SSE 50.3), Eastway (SSA 49.5, SSE 49.6), Sugaw Creek (SSA 49.7, SSE 49.5) Average Moderate Wooded (SSA 49.6, SSE 49.8)

Heavily Wooded: Hornets Nest (SSA 54.0, SSE 56.9), Idlewild (SSA 53, SSE 55.3), Nevin (SSA 59.2, SSE 63.7), Reedy Original (SSA 47, SSE 49.5),RL Smith (SSA 52.4, SSE 52.7), Winget (SSA 49.6, SSE 49.7) Average Heavily Wooded (SSA 52.5, SSE 54.6)

The outlier to the data is Rennaissance Gold. Renaissance Gold is providing a much higher SSA when compared to SSE from previous tournaments (69.8 vs 65.7). I expect that this deviation is created by the number of OB opportunities and very fast greens at Renny. I think it would be a good course to have a "very technical" rating.

In general, either the factor for "Heavily Wooded" is too great or we are too lenient in the Charlotte area to consider a course "Heavily Wooded".

Actually, the weighting factors for SSE are based largely on Charlotte courses as those were the courses I knew the exact configurations (lengths) and weather conditions that corresponded with SSA data. I begged for more data from other DGCR members, but the actual real data which SSE is based upon is embarrassingly limited.

You may well be right that the weighting on "Heavily Wooded" is too great....but I was influenced by looking at that outlier Renny (SSAs from both Gold and Original). My thinking was that I was observing more and more new courses/designers offering a similar level of challenge.

I am very pleased with how well SSE estimates SSA. I would bet a lot of money that it does a MUCH more accurate job at predicting the SSA than the sum total of DGCR tournament players could do after making a visit to a course.

jeverett worked the magic on converting SSE to a DGCR Player Rating. By extension, I am very pleased with how well it works.....especially given that each course configuration has only 3 choices for a variable that sets SSE (and resultant Player Ratings). Remember, "SSE is what DGCR estimates a Pro would score".....and a "Pro" could be rated 980-1030.....and SSE almost always is within that range.

 

[Dave242]

PDGA 982
DGCR 988

Even though the numbers are close I get some wildly inaccurate ratings from DGCR. Luckily they are wildy off in both directions and net to close to my PDGA rating.

Examples:
This past weekend in Fairmont 1st round on Seth Burton. PDGA 997/DGCR 959. Second round PDGA 990/DGCR 945

My weekly league at Schenley I regularly shoot in the mid 40's. 44 on DGCR is rated 1053, but people who are PDGA rated from 940 to 975, have shot 41's or 42's so that would mean they are putting up rounds close to 1100 rated.

I'll comment on Schenley since I have played there. There is nothing too unique about it that would affect SSE that much. I can guarantee you that you have things set up wrong in your scorebook. It looks like 3 tees and 2 basket locations on many holes.......so setting things up correctly can be a chore. Also, SSE's vary wildly on the 3 set-ups currently on the course page: 41.5 (3,133'), 48.9 (4,593'), 54.8 (5,754')

Another thing that is off is that it is not a Heavily Wooded course as is it is set up as (described as) on the course page. About 1/2 the holes are open or forgiving enough where a bad drive will almost never result in a bogey. Moderately Wooded would describe the course better and also probably give better results.