PDGA Website Scoring no longer requires players to sign their scorecard

[dmoore1998]

Sounds like it is the player's fault for not checking their scorecard and immediately going to the TD to get it fixed. How do you not notice that there is an ace on your scorecard when you know for a fact that you didn't get an ace? Annoying that the scorekeeper submitted the round right away, but easily fixable.

I think the issue is the player DID ace, but it wasn't on the scorecard. But I'll answer the question you asked:

How do you not notice that there is an ace on your scorecard when you know for a fact that you didn't get an ace?

You don't notice if you never get to see the scorecard.

It's hard for me to even think of a worse procedure than considering all scores final without some system for players giving an active assent that their score is correct. That's scorekeeping 101.

 

[BillFleming]

I think the issue is the player DID ace, but it wasn't on the scorecard. But I'll answer the question you asked:

How do you not notice that there is an ace on your scorecard when you know for a fact that you didn't get an ace?

You don't notice if you never get to see the scorecard.

It's hard for me to even think of a worse procedure than considering all scores final without some system for players giving an active assent that their score is correct. That's scorekeeping 101.

One issue is that there never was a system for requiring players to check their scores.

Paper score sheet - Scorer could just turn it in...no player's initials, etc needed.
Digital - even when it "required a player to confirm" it really didn't require that at all. All it required was a person to enter the player's last name or PDGA number. The score keeper could do that without ever showing it to the player.

Why did the "confirmation" go away? I think it is because players would finish and leave, then the score keeper couldn't find them to confirm....so they either confirmed for them or went to the TD about it. If the process really doesn't require a true confirmation, why have it?

With two people in the group using PDGA Live Scoring, there's less chance of a scoring issue. If they don't match for the hole just played, it lets you know immediately so it can be fixed. I believe everyone in the group should be either doing the Live Scoring or checking the Live Scoring to see what scores are being entered for them. It's too easy for a scorekeeper to mark a score for the wrong person, especially if you have two or more players with the same first name.

However, at the end of the round, the score keeper should say...."Does anyone want to check the scores?". And that should be asked as soon as the last player reported their score for the final hole....don't give anyone a chance to walk away before you find out if they want to check their score.

 

[joshmo65]

I think the issue is the player DID ace, but it wasn't on the scorecard. But I'll answer the question you asked:

How do you not notice that there is an ace on your scorecard when you know for a fact that you didn't get an ace?

You don't notice if you never get to see the scorecard.

It's hard for me to even think of a worse procedure than considering all scores final without some system for players giving an active assent that their score is correct. That's scorekeeping 101.

Sorry. You were correct. He aced a par 4, but the scorekeeper thought it was a par 3, so he hit the minus sign twice and called it a day. But my point still stands, why didn't the player ever check his score? The scores are up online. Even if he didn't get to check it before the scorekeeper submitted it, he could still have pulled out his phone and just checked it there. There isn't an excuse for the player imo.

 

[dmoore1998]

Sorry. You were correct. He aced a par 4, but the scorekeeper thought it was a par 3, so he hit the minus sign twice and called it a day. But my point still stands, why didn't the player ever check his score? The scores are up online. Even if he didn't get to check it before the scorekeeper submitted it, he could still have pulled out his phone and just checked it there. There isn't an excuse for the player imo.

Conceptually I just hate the idea of "if you want to play disc golf you have to have a smart phone and have it with you". I know plenty of people who don't have smart phones who still play.

I also am just not a fan of having this category (scoring) where ball golf has already figured this out. And because disc golf seems to want to be it's own thing and not tied to ball golf that instead of just going with the system that already works, they're trying to reinvent the wheel with a new system, and doing it really poorly. Same thing for pace of play rules.

 

[biscoe]

Conceptually I just hate the idea of "if you want to play disc golf you have to have a smart phone and have it with you". I know plenty of people who don't have smart phones who still play.

I also am just not a fan of having this category (scoring) where ball golf has already figured this out. And because disc golf seems to want to be it's own thing and not tied to ball golf that instead of just going with the system that already works, they're trying to reinvent the wheel with a new system, and doing it really poorly. Same thing for pace of play rules.

TD's are required to have paper scorecards on hand for the neanderthals who want them. The Live Scoring system works great. (I believed as you do at first but it has proven its merit to me both as a TD (waaay better) and as a player.) The screw ups in the OP are by the players and possibly the TD, not indicative of a flaw in the system. I have run at least 20 events using Live Scoring at this point with no issues. Having a minimum of 2 players per group logged in really does make errors virtually self-rectifying.

 

[dmoore1998]

TD's are required to have paper scorecards on hand for the neanderthals who want them. The Live Scoring system works great. (I believed as you do at first but it has proven its merit to me both as a TD (waaay better) and as a player.) The screw ups in the OP are by the players and possibly the TD, not indicative of a flaw in the system. I have run at least 20 events using Live Scoring at this point with no issues. Having a minimum of 2 players per group logged in really does make errors virtually self-rectifying.

Live scoring is fine IMO. Any system which does not make a policy of players positively assenting to their final score is inherently flawed. Yes, the screwup is by the scorekeeper...but a system which says a screwup by another player will negatively impact you without you doing anything is not a good one. It's not complicated, heck they already HAD that system...then did away with it.

I don't care if 4 out of 5 players on a card are keeping score...no score should EVER be submitted as final without that player assenting to it. The worst part is that it's such a simple thing to do, and already existed.

 

[ToddL]

I don't care if 4 out of 5 players on a card are keeping score...no score should EVER be submitted as final without that player assenting to it. The worst part is that it's such a simple thing to do, and already existed.

What was the version that existed?

 

[dmoore1998]

What was the version that existed?

According to this thread, it used to be that on live scoring there was a "signoff" of entering your last name or PDGA number before the scorer could submit the card's scores.

 

[ru4por]

TD's are required to have paper scorecards on hand for the neanderthals who want them. The Live Scoring system works great. (I believed as you do at first but it has proven its merit to me both as a TD (waaay better) and as a player.) The screw ups in the OP are by the players and possibly the TD, not indicative of a flaw in the system. I have run at least 20 events using Live Scoring at this point with no issues. Having a minimum of 2 players per group logged in really does make errors virtually self-rectifying.

There is NO question that live scoring is immeasurably better for the TD and staff. It made COVID tournaments possible.

I think the benefits to the player are minimal. I often hear defense that it is easier.....I refute that. Though there are some advantages.

 

[biscoe]

There is NO question that live scoring is immeasurably better for the TD and staff. It made COVID tournaments possible.

I think the benefits to the player are minimal. I often hear defense that it is easier.....I refute that. Though there are some advantages.

Benefits to the player lies more in the result (access to everyone's scores at all times, instantaneous gratification when asking "what was it rated?", etc) than in the process. The process is pretty much the same whether using Live, paper card, or abacus.

 

[ToddL]

According to this thread, it used to be that on live scoring there was a "signoff" of entering your last name or PDGA number before the scorer could submit the card's scores.

But the scorer is the one in charge of the device. The scorer could (and often did) enter the other players' information. All they had to do was type in everyone's last name and then hit the submit button. Active consent was a formality that was easily bypassed.

Should each person have a private passcode they have to enter? Each person has to use their own fingerprint? I can't really think of an easily usable affirmative solution. Maybe each person must keep their own score. Maybe all players have to walk up to the TD and look them in the eye at the point the score is submitted.

 

[dmoore1998]

But the scorer is the one in charge of the device. The scorer could (and often did) enter the other players' information. All they had to do was type in everyone's last name and then hit the submit button. Active consent was a formality that was easily bypassed.

Should each person have a private passcode they have to enter? Each person has to use their own fingerprint? I can't really think of an easily usable affirmative solution. Maybe each person must keep their own score. Maybe all players have to walk up to the TD and look them in the eye at the point the score is submitted.

None of that is any different from a paper scorecard. If someone wanted to forge someone's signature all over the card they could. There's a world of difference between "nobody has to confirm their score as a matter of process" and "someone could commit fraud by bypassing the process".

Are you saying you know of scorers who "often" typed in someone else's information and refused to let them see their own scores? Or they just typed in the player information after everyone was given a chance to review their score?

 

[Cgkdisc]

The best paper scoring system was/is used at AmNats which is similar to ball golf scoring procedures. That's where just before your group tees on hole 1, the starter (Mark Ellis) randomly swaps each player's paper scorecard so they keep score for another player in the group. They can also track their own score in a scratch area if they wish. With some clever programming, this scoring procedure could be developed for live scoring. Maybe initially require its use in higher level events.

 

[krupicka]

I think the benefits to the player are minimal. I often hear defense that it is easier.....I refute that. Though there are some advantages.

When it is raining, as a player I'd much rather use a phone than paper. It's a lot easier to keep score with a phone. Put it in a ziploc and you can still use it. Paper cards get destroyed even when trying to keep them dry with a ziploc/umbrella, etc.

 

[BillFleming]

There is NO question that live scoring is immeasurably better for the TD and staff. It made COVID tournaments possible.

I think the benefits to the player are minimal. I often hear defense that it is easier.....I refute that. Though there are some advantages.

The main benefit to players of Live Scoring is that they can see how they are doing compared to other players in their division. I've been in tournaments where people on my card were checking Live Scoring to see how they were doing and if they could "relax" or if they had to be "going for it".

Another benefit, but smaller, is for players who have family or friends playing...they can check and see how they are doing during the round. I know of a player who finished in a shotgun start and used Live Scoring to check where his son was.

I've used it as Course Director for the Memorial to help late arrivals catch up to their group.

As Course Director, I've also used it to see if there were gaps in groups and check on when certain groups were close to finishing.

 

[elmexdela]

When it is raining, as a player I'd much rather use a phone than paper. It's a lot easier to keep score with a phone. Put it in a ziploc and you can still use it. Paper cards get destroyed even when trying to keep them dry with a ziploc/umbrella, etc.

lol why do you play in the rain

 

[DanJon]

At a certain point, the PDGA will need to require that you own a smart phone with connectivity in order to play tournaments.

 

[robdeforge]

Conceptually I just hate the idea of "if you want to play disc golf you have to have a smart phone and have it with you". I know plenty of people who don't have smart phones who still play.

As somebody who has a smart phone and is very technologically inclined and literate, I hate using my phone while playing disc golf. I'll keep score with pen and paper or not at all. I don't particularly like it when other people use udisc either but that's up to them - IMO you don't really notice how jarring it is to have somebody take out their phone between every. single. hole. until you don't do that. But I really would not be a fan of being forced to use my phone to keep score.

At a certain point, the PDGA will need to require that you own a smart phone with connectivity in order to play tournaments.

sure hope not

When it is raining, as a player I'd much rather use a phone than paper. It's a lot easier to keep score with a phone. Put it in a ziploc and you can still use it. Paper cards get destroyed even when trying to keep them dry with a ziploc/umbrella, etc.

I would not want to be forced to use my phone during a rainy round. Phone are water resistant, not water proof, and risking damage to a(n expensive) personal electronic device just to avoid having to keep score with pen and paper seems crazy to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[txmxer]

As somebody who has a smart phone and is very technologically inclined and literate, I hate using my phone while playing disc golf. I'll keep score with pen and paper or not at all. I don't particularly like it when other people use udisc either but that's up to them - IMO you don't really notice how jarring it is to have somebody take out their phone between every. single. hole. until you don't do that. But I really would not be a fan of being forced to use my phone to keep score.



sure hope not



I would not want to be forced to use my phone during a rainy round. Phone are water resistant, not water proof, and risking damage to a(n expensive) personal electronic device just to avoid having to keep score with pen and paper seems crazy to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

actually, the latest phones are IP67 rated. May not be "waterproof", but they are rated to be underwater for a half hour. I'd say that covers rain adequately.

I haven't played tournaments near as much as many here. I've done score keeping with paper and with the phone. I prefer using the phone--of course, that would only apply if you have cell coverage. Regardless, I find using the phone easier.

Score cards get pretty messed up by the end of a round in my experience. Smudged, wet with rain or sweat. It's easier to mark the score on the wrong line.

JMO.

Technology is here to stay and will be used more and more for score keeping. May be able to improve on it, but it is not going away.

 

[robdeforge]

actually, the latest phones are IP67 rated. May not be "waterproof", but they are rated to be underwater for a half hour. I'd say that covers rain adequately.

so they are as I said: water resistant and not water proof, right? additionally, the amount of water resistance offered degrades over time. brand new phone is almost definitely OK - the older it is, the harder it is to tell how much it has retained.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207043

Splash, water, and dust resistance are not permanent conditions and resistance might decrease as a result of normal wear. Liquid damage is not covered under warranty, but you might have rights under consumer law.