Penal Design

[DavidSauls]

This seems more an issue of taste than principle.

In all the OOB examples in the O.P., I may not have played all the cited courses but I've seen those features---yellow rope (or some other contrivance), ponds, creeks, etc.---that punish bad shots with penalty throws. Of course, I've seen them poorly done, but mostly like them where I've seen them used. I don't find any particular benefit or purity in your score equaling your total throws, with no penalty throws.

However, there are plenty of wooded courses that punish bad shots without OOB. Where you get just what the O.P. described---if you miss the fairway you lose strokes getting back to it, but without dense underbrush or thorns, at least to the extent that the course can be maintained. Much of Charlotte, or the IDGC, for example.

 

[davetherocketguy]

This seems more an issue of taste than principle.

I totally agree!

This is a REALLY interesting thread by the way. I love it.

Frankly, the pictures from Devils Den is stuff I don't like. The fabricated OB and mando's while interesting to some seem a little contrived to me. It's almost getting to the putt-putt golf style of course. However, I completely understand why some folks would like that. Just isn't my cup 'o tea.

I think prerube in one of the previous posts that the beauty of DG is playing around what's there as opposed to manufacturing penalties. If we are going to manufacture penalties for bad shots I would rather see it with more natural landscaping. As opposed to man-made structures and the like, I would rather see DG'ers strategically plant trees and shrubs. I imagine pitching the idea of a DG course to a municipality might be a little more palatable if the designer removes some trees and brush and replaces it with some landscaping to make the land more interesting to play. I am not completely opposed to man-made structures and contrived OB's just that they be used sparingly.

And think about this, if you need a lot of man-made structures and manufactured OB's to make a course interesting to play then should you really install a course on that plot of land? I cannot stand it when a municipality or some other entity spends copious amounts of resources to install a DG course on flat uninteresting land. It's like they are building a course for the sake of building a course. About 6 years ago I talked to a parks director about a planned DG course on a flat, uninteresting park and encouraged him not to spend money on that. The design called for holes 90 to 150 feet long. I told him that if they really want a DG course they have much more interesting parks to put it in...I don't think it was ever going to be installed anyways but I am glad I talked to him.

I think instead of manufacturing an OB plant rows of stuff like this:

I am in no way a landscaper so I really know very little about plants and I realize plants like that aren't going to work everywhere so I'm not completely sure what species will work best. Imagine a row of those alongside a fairway right where you want to land a drive. Not very likely to loose a disc but land on the wrong side and you might as well be out of bounds.

 

[sloppydisc]

Question

birchfeild park(devils den) in lansing does a great job of adding some interesting OB and making you think about your shot. island holes, sandtraps, gardens, mando walls, and fountains offer some nice looking challenges.

Is the OB within the 10 M putting circle on Devil's Den #7? If so, I am not sure that makes any sense.

 

[denny ritner]

The "Mando Wall" is a horrible design concept. No need to artificially create blind shots that require spotters. Wasn't it originally designed that way because another hole's tee pad was directly behind the wall? Total clusterfawk.

The basket in the rock garden with the mini waterfall, however, sure is pretty, even if it doesn't do much to change the play of the hole.

 

[DavidSauls]

@davetherocketguy

One issue with planting plants is the 5, 10, 20 years it takes them to grow into effective barriers. In the meantime, you've got an open hole with dinky little trees---IF they survive the disc golfers.

I used to be offended by contrived O.B. (yellow rope, etc.). Then I played a course that made really good use of it, and it changed my position.

Sometimes it's called "artificial O.B.", but artificial isn't really the point. Many roads, walking trails, ponds, and ditches we use as O.B. are artificial as well.

I see it this way. A course designer uses existing features and, hopefully, designs a course where shot placement and risk/reward come into play. He may see a creek or pond or little-used paved area, and position the hole so those items are integral O.B. hazards. Few people have problem with this, because they were pre-existing features. (The O.P. perhaps being one of them, though).

But if that's okay, what's wrong with designing a hole on open land, and putting down rope in the exact same configuration? You end up with an identical hole, except that the O.B. isn't pre-existing. If the former was a good hole to play, the latter is a good hole to play.

 

[BrotherDave]

The "Mando Wall" is a horrible design concept. No need to artificially create blind shots that require spotters. Wasn't it originally designed that way because another hole's tee pad was directly behind the wall? Total clusterfawk.

No chit. That's the dumbest thing I've seen in a while.

 

[davetherocketguy]

@davetherocketguy

One issue with planting plants is the 5, 10, 20 years it takes them to grow into effective barriers. In the meantime, you've got an open hole with dinky little trees---IF they survive the disc golfers.

That's a good point. But what about stuff like this?

http://fastgrowingtree.hubpages.com/hub/Austree

In a year or two a row of this could easily guard a fairway edge. Of course, I have no idea on cost and what not.

I used to be offended by contrived O.B. (yellow rope, etc.). Then I played a course that made really good use of it, and it changed my position.

Sometimes it's called "artificial O.B.", but artificial isn't really the point. Many roads, walking trails, ponds, and ditches we use as O.B. are artificial as well.

I guess I've never been on a course like that so I really have no idea what that is like. I am certainly open to trying one out...I'm not really opposed to artificial stuff so long as it's used sparingly and where it's needed like to avoid throwing into areas like active roadways, playground equipment, etc.

I see it this way. A course designer uses existing features and, hopefully, designs a course where shot placement and risk/reward come into play. He may see a creek or pond or little-used paved area, and position the hole so those items are integral O.B. hazards. Few people have problem with this, because they were pre-existing features. (The O.P. perhaps being one of them, though).

But if that's okay, what's wrong with designing a hole on open land, and putting down rope in the exact same configuration? You end up with an identical hole, except that the O.B. isn't pre-existing. If the former was a good hole to play, the latter is a good hole to play.

But by doing that you are removing one of the most important elements to DG that I love to have in a course. A nice walk through the woods/park/desert. Sure, you could recreate almost any existing hole with yellow rope out in the middle of an open field but you will loose the ambiance.

Take hole one at Rogers Lakewood for example:

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/1773/e215d4ec.jpg

It would be fairly easy to reconstruct that hole almost any open plot of land and just place yellow rope where the water is, create a mando where the trees are and so on but without throwing over real water and around real trees something is lost. This is why I stated earlier not all plots of land are suited to DG and probably better off as soccer fields or baseball diamonds...or as a ball golf course.

The crux of the issue for me, is that I want to see courses that use the existing land effectively. I don't want to see designs that rely heavily on man-made obstructions...just seems like a cop-out in course design. That mando wall for example is just ridiculous. It's like something you'd find at a putt-putt course and that's what I want to avoid.

Don't get me wrong though, If you set up a course with oodles of yellow rope, mandos and so on, I'll be willing to give it a shot - so long as I don't have to drive too far.

 

[hound_dog]

Why is it called a mando wall? Is it a mando or a wall? or are you supposed to hit it for some reason? It just looks like a wall to me.

 

[DavidSauls]

Alas, we take the land that's available to us.

Open, featureless land is rarely the case. Yes, I'd say that an open, flat land, with fairways and O.B.'s "drawn" on it by yellow rope, probably wouldn't be appealing, no matter how well it was done.

The course that changed my mind was Still Waters Farm (now extinct). It had open, rolling grasslands, plus forests and a lake. The rope wasn't necessary in the woods, but it created some distinct fairways in the open areas. They were cool to play because you had to be accurate with your landings, yet could really throw far if you felt you could land in the fairway. It remains one of my Top-5 courses. (Usually they marked it with stakes, not actual yellow rope).

Stoney Hill makes great use of the land, is a pretty nice walk in the woods, and has great variety. Yet one hole was greatly enhanced by contrived O.B. it's a big downhill in a powerline right-of-way. We ran an O.B. line down the hill, left of the basket, so you've got to decide how close you want to risk going O.B. to run at the basket....or how much of a dangerous downhill putt you want to leave yourself, if you shy away from O.B. too much. We played it both ways and, you'll have to take my word, it's much more exciting with the O.B. (orange stakes for sight, and string for specificity).

 

[davetherocketguy]

Stoney Hill makes great use of the land, is a pretty nice walk in the woods, and has great variety. Yet one hole was greatly enhanced by contrived O.B. it's a big downhill in a powerline right-of-way. We ran an O.B. line down the hill, left of the basket, so you've got to decide how close you want to risk going O.B. to run at the basket....or how much of a dangerous downhill putt you want to leave yourself, if you shy away from O.B. too much. We played it both ways and, you'll have to take my word, it's much more exciting with the O.B. (orange stakes for sight, and string for specificity).

You mean this course?

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1875

GREAT. YET ANOTHER course I need to put on my wish list that I will never have time to get to.

Now in the pictures, that appears to be hole #9 and I kinda like it. That kind of stuff I am not opposed to at all.

 

[DavidSauls]

Yeah, that's the course, and #9 with the orange stakes visible in the tee shot.

 

[tarel]

some cool ass pics

i would love to play that course. nice.

 

[optidiscic]

So let's break these down a bit

Fast greens

Should penalize aggressive play (Risk/Reward) but theres some extreme greens out there

Some complaints I've heard and will bring up to start discussion

Cliffs: too extreme too punitive as most will lay-up and scoring separation bunches up
OOB near Basket: A bad roll or miss adds 2 strokes or more instead of 1
Roll Away greens: Sometimes you cannot even lay-up as the green is severely sloped
Elevated Baskets: too gimicky and destandardizes the putting style of many players

I am sure there are more but these are some complaints I've read and heard from players

How do we do a fast green well that FAIRLY punishes aggressive play?

 

[BrotherDave]

Snake pit around the basket.

 

[MikePinchico]

I hate when people are critical of my penal design

 

[DavidSauls]

So let's break these down a bit

Fast greens

Should penalize aggressive play (Risk/Reward) but theres some extreme greens out there

Some complaints I've heard and will bring up to start discussion

Cliffs: too extreme too punitive as most will lay-up and scoring separation bunches up
OOB near Basket: A bad roll or miss adds 2 strokes or more instead of 1
Roll Away greens: Sometimes you cannot even lay-up as the green is severely sloped
Elevated Baskets: too gimicky and destandardizes the putting style of many players

I am sure there are more but these are some complaints I've read and heard from players

How do we do a fast green well that FAIRLY punishes aggressive play?

If the green is so steeply sloped that you can't lay up on it, it's unfair. (We built one like this at Stoney Hill once. We later modified it so layups are possible, though you have to execute them well).

In my opinion, the additional penalty for missed putts---whether O.B. nearby or a sloped green or drop-off---is fair. It changes the risk/reward ratio that a player must consider. He's rewarding for playing aggressive IF he executes the putt correctly; or he can lay up and perhaps lose a stroke to another aggressive player.

I'm not sure I've seen many holes where "most lay up". Inside the circle, confident putters will mostly go for the putt. Outside the circle, most people weren't going to make the putt, anyway, so laying up doesn't change the scoring spread a whole lot.

*

Disclaimer: The 3 courses I play most of the time all have lots of O.B., and some fast/rollaway greens, and baskets close enough that you can putt O.B. The course I built has O.B. on 2/3 of the holes, and all these other features. So I'll confess to being biased, and believing they add excitement, strategy, and variety to the game when done well.

 

[DavidSauls]

Supplemental on unfair rollaway greens---

Timmons Park has steep sloping greens. But the ground on many is uneven with exposed roots and large rocks. They're not unfair for putting, but they push fairness on drives or approach shots to the green, since it's often a crapshoot as to whether a disc will stay, or kick and roll downhill.

Most courses, even sloping greens, if you control the angle the disc lands at, you greatly reduce rollaways. It's much less reliable at Timmons.

 

[Ricky_Rick]

Why is it called a mando wall? Is it a mando or a wall? or are you supposed to hit it for some reason? It just looks like a wall to me.

Mando = Mandatory. Some courses use mandatory objects to force you to go one way or another. Sometimes it is a mando tree you must go around from the right side only, or be penalized. The Mando Wall hole on Burchfield #2 DD requires you to go directly over it or be penalized. While you are allowed to hit it if you want, the preferred method is to clear it.

I have not played any courses with yellow roped off sections. To add to FishMich's post, Burchfield is one of the few courses in Michigan (in my short time playing) that I have seen utilize different methods.

I have some photos I took...
Mando Wall, Hole #2 long tees only.
OB Sand Trap in front of blue basket, #7.
"Island" green, inside rock circle is good, outside is OB, hole #17.

Good discussion. I dont mind seeing obstacles in the way or shooting around things to make it more technical. And while water looks pretty, nothing worse than losing a favorite disc you have had for a while on a bad shot. I can deal with a penalty stroke, but do I need to lose Plastic too?

 

[Thumber]

Supplemental on unfair rollaway greens---

Timmons Park has steep sloping greens. But the ground on many is uneven with exposed roots and large rocks. They're not unfair for putting, but they push fairness on drives or approach shots to the green, since it's often a crapshoot as to whether a disc will stay, or kick and roll downhill.

Most courses, even sloping greens, if you control the angle the disc lands at, you greatly reduce rollaways. It's much less reliable at Timmons.

Up here at Camp Fortune we are playing on the side of ski hill. More than one green is quite sloped and roll aways definitely affect scoring. There are 2 thoughts I have on this.

One: you need to decide if you are laying up or going for it. Hitting the basket causes most of the roll aways so if you are laying up you throw a nice anny approach that lands flat and sticks. Otherwise, you risk taking the extra stroke for the roll away.

Two: Learning how to make a putter stick on steep greens is an art in itself. Learning the right spin, speed and how to land the disc makes all the difference. If you can only hyzer putt you are going to suffer on steep greens. Players with more skills will get better scores.

I am not a fan of artificial OB.

 

[DavidSauls]

And while water looks pretty, nothing worse than losing a favorite disc you have had for a while on a bad shot. I can deal with a penalty stroke, but do I need to lose Plastic too?

Also a matter of taste.

I've known a few disc golfers to gamble on their rounds. A decent body of water allows you to gamble on that one shot.

The fact that you don't want to lose a disc heightens the mental pressure and, to those of us who like it, the game. When I face a water carry I think, "Do I want to risk my best driver? Or throw a less-valuable driver---which, because it's not my best, is even more likely to not make it?"