[Question] Potential tech standards changes?

[Three Putt]

I think this is very much in keeping with Innova's stance for the last decade. Around the time of the Orc I started seeing the 10% rule being floated. The 10% rule was an idea that a disc's wing could be no larger than 10% of the diameter, which would have de facto capped wings for drivers at 2.1 cm or Wraith size. Dave Dunipace was the guy I heard promoting that. That got no traction, so eventually Innova had to move with the market and release the Destroyer. If anyone has the time to look it up, Dave Dunipace posted on the PDGA message board that he had drug his feet mightily on that release because he believed it was a disc that should not be released. He said at the time that Innova was forced into that release because the PDGA had not responded to the tech standard revisions that Innova felt the game needed.

That Harold would revisit the issue is no surprise to me. In case you have not been paying attention, here it is: Innova thinks the Wraith sized wing should be the cap. They would gladly remove the Destroyer, Boss, XCal, etc., from the market because they do not think they are any good for the game. They sell them because they feel they are forced to by the current PDGA tech standards.

It's no surprise to me that it came up again. I'm more surprised that Innova doesn't bring it up every year. Anybody who has really paid attention to what the people who run Innova have said over the years would not be surprised by this either.

 

[turbosteve]

devils advocate because internet

did the pdga ever come up with data or reasoning for why they placed the rim width limit where it was/is/has been?

this thread and others make it seem as if a "players" association might be needed. a voice for the players.

f1 cars were faster back in the day, but they were too dangerous and have since been just fine. advances at the cost of safety don't mean much. especially when you are trying to go mainstream.

Its ironic that you say a "players" association may be needed because the current rim width limit was voted by the members of the association right after Steady Ed turned the association over to the players.

 

[Picked_Up]

Depending on how they go about it, lowering the ability of the disc to outperform the person can be something that actually helps the sport.

In almost every sport to date you can see at least one instance where technology advanced to the point where the rules or courses could no longer keep up. In football they outlawed the use of "stick'em, " Hockey now has very strict standards on how much bend you can have in the end of your stick(thank you, Brett Hull), lacrosse had to change the dimensional requirements of the head of their sticks, golf had maintained a strict ruleset on their club dimensions and even basketball has shoe regulations that has caused some shoes to get banned. Some of these changes have been made in the interest of fairness, some for for safety, some to put more of an emphasis on skill and some for all of the above.

Even with all of those changes, these sports have managed to endure. Why would disc golf be any different. It was mentioned earlier and bears repeating that if everything over a "speed nine" gets outlawed, will the game really get changed that much? People will still be throwing over 500ft and those drives will still have that "wow" factor, at least they will in my opinion.

The previous mention of "finding land for courses" also brings up a great argument. If you want to expand the sport into more areas, you have to make it more accessable. Not every park is going to want to put in a course with three or four 800 foot holes, especially in the cases where they can put a larger number of smaller and more challenging holes in.

If this does get passed, how much is it really going to affect you? Nothing is stopping you from going out with your buddies and using your Boss or Nuke, you just have to find a "slower disc" when tournament time rolls around.

From a financial standpoint, this isn't going to be as impactful as one might think. Sure, they are going to scrap those super wide rimmed molds, but you already bought the disc. They aren't out any money. In instances like this, you may or may not have to go out and buy new discs if you want to play in tournaments that will replace those super long distance driver slots.

TL;DR: This isn't halting the evolution of the sport. It's just redirecting it a bit.
But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

[Three Putt]

I have some questions.

1. Are you the players ok with the owner of the largest disc manufacturing company in our sport making a recommendation to the board about changing disc tech standards without all manufactures having a say?

I don't think that is what happened. They brought it up, and they have the right to bring it up. It's up to the PDGA to bring the other manufacturers to the table if it it going to be seriously considered.

2. What are the reasons for Innova making these recommendations?

Many of the people who run Innova have been on the record that they thought the wing size should have been capped at a smaller number than what actually occurred. That they are repeating this now just means they have not given up the fight they lost in the last Tech Standards revision. The reasons why probably have not changed; people like Chuck Kennedy and Stork should know all about what their reasons are.

3. Would our sport be the safer if all discs were 150 class and no sharper than a midrange? Would you want to get hit in the face with this disc by Ricky or Catrina?

I don't want to get hit in the face with anything. :|

4. Would our sport be better or worse it we went backwards in technology?

This is an issue that only effects the very top players. I can't throw a Krait any farther than a Valk, so if the Krait all of a sudden was illegal it wouldn't really change my life at all. It would have an effect on how far the big boys could crush, so really they only place the change needs to be considered is how it would effect play at the highest levels.

 

[Three Putt]

Its ironic that you say a "players" association may be needed because the current rim width limit was voted by the members of the association right after Steady Ed turned the association over to the players.

Nah, the wing limit was determined in a tech standards revision that happened when QuestAT went all TurboPutt/Wheel on us. Up until then the wing could be as big as you wanted it to go. It was capped where it is because QuestAT had the Double D on the market already; there was a lot of complaining that Quest would have an unfair advantage if they could sell something that had a wing bigger than anyone else could make and the PDGA didn't want to slog through the lawsuit that making the Double D illegal would bring. So they just set the limit there and grandfathered the Epic and maybe one other disc that had a larger wing.

 

[iacas]

I'd be fine with banning everything above a "speed 9" or so. The sport will still be the same - except we won't have 800 foot par fours.

Plus we'll get to play with fewer discs. I like that.

 

[dekdo]

why is this not in some form of a poll...

 

[mashnut]

This is an issue that only effects the very top players. I can't throw a Krait any farther than a Valk, so if the Krait all of a sudden was illegal it wouldn't really change my life at all. It would have an effect on how far the big boys could crush, so really they only place the change needs to be considered is how it would effect play at the highest levels.

This is the one piece of your post I disagree with (in general, not specifically). A lot of young players with an athletic background can strong arm a fast driver farther than a slower driver. Most of the top pros can get almost as much distance out of a valk or wraith as a destroyer or boss, they just have to work a little harder with low ceilings or strong headwinds.

 

[turbosteve]

Nah, the wing limit was determined in a tech standards revision that happened when QuestAT went all TurboPutt/Wheel on us. Up until then the wing could be as big as you wanted it to go. It was capped where it is because QuestAT had the Double D on the market already; there was a lot of complaining that Quest would have an unfair advantage if they could sell something that had a wing bigger than anyone else could make and the PDGA didn't want to slog through the lawsuit that making the Double D illegal would bring. So they just set the limit there and grandfathered the Epic and maybe one other disc that had a larger wing.

My bad I confused the rim width with the 8.3 g/cm for the max weight of a disc.

 

[onemilemore]

Rather than seeing this idea as something that moves the sport backward, I think a case can be made that this moves it forward. Placing more of an emphasis on line shaping rather than big hyzer bombs will put skill on display, which is something spectators appreciate. Skill can make the sport more legitimate when compared to others.

Also, as other posters have said, if discs didn't travel as far, courses could be fit into more compact spaces, which could very likely mean more courses. If there are more courses, the exposure to the sport can increase.

It's all about perspective here. Dropping down rim width can be viewed as a positive or a negative. It just depends on your lens.

In all of this, though, data will be important to make a final decision.

 

[turbosteve]

I think the 10% rule would be a big advancement for the sport because eventually it would lead to less noobs throwing grooves and other discs that are terrible for beginners. This would make it much more enjoyable for them and may help the game grow faster than it currently is.

 

[AndyJB]

Isnt the Wraith more or less a baby Destroyer? If so, I can live with that. Not to hard to find a flippy driver in that speed to replace my Terns. If its moved down to Speed 11, then I am no longer opposed as I dont think it will effect my playing skills (or lack thereof) too much.

Bumping all the way down to speed nine would kind of set me back to where I was three years ago though.

 

[kerplunk]

If they are claiming safety then some data is in order, but the points about line shaping, course lengths, and limits on technology in other sports are valid. However I think it will be less spectator friendly, as seeing guys bomb huge drives on open courses is probably what the "masses" are more interested in. Although I don't think I am actually a fan of growing the sport at the pro level, but that is another thread.

Maybe he just wants to see the Feldy Bosses retired.

 

[Cgkdisc]

There have already been lines drawn on specs several years ago. However, the manufacturers haven't fully reached those limits until about now. There are spec/technology caps in every professional sport. It's just a matter where you draw the line so all of the game elements stay in balance.

I don't think pulling back a bit on the specs right now would make any current courses "too long" for the top pros. As stated above, they get there in many cases with rounder edge discs, and in fact prefer them since they can be more accurate. The only game element that would "suffer" from a new record might be distance. But isn't it unfair to previous record holders if new technology is more the reason their record was broken than an actual better performance by the thrower?

 

[dekdo]

devils advocate because internet

did the pdga ever come up with data or reasoning for why they placed the rim width limit where it was/is/has been?

this thread and others make it seem as if a "players" association might be needed. a voice for the players.

f1 cars were faster back in the day, but they were too dangerous and have since been just fine. advances at the cost of safety don't mean much. especially when you are trying to go mainstream.

Im not really sure how safety can ever be an issue with disc golf... Just pay attention. Can you imagine getting hit with a bad drive in ball golf?? That could kill, but you dont see them hitting tennis balls(or whatever would be softer) around do you?

 

[atay87]

I don't see how dropping it down to 2.1 cm would make much difference at all. Innova Pros would have to start throwing the Wraith instead of the Destroyer which I'm sure they can throw just as far. I realize you have do draw the line somewhere, but the pros have already shown that wider rims do not mean easier, further distance. They choose discs that are well within the current 2.5 cm limit like Destroyers at 2.2 cm and the D1 through D4 at 2.3 cm.

 

[Peterb]

fast, wide rimmed drivers definitely create nicks in trees more easily. Over time, they can hurt certain types of trees, and really affect young trees or smaller vegetation. So yeah, from a sustainability standpoint, Harold has a great point.

I wish we could all throw ultrastars or pulsars...all we'd need is a target for them. That would really be interesting since the tie in with ultimate would become readily apparent.

 

[dekdo]

I think If anything, they should just cap it (or leave the cap) where it is if thats how they really feel... so all the molds and money invested into the high speed discs, and the discs themselves dont go to waste.

People wont feel like they are losing anything this way and they will understand that this is the supposed limit.

fast, wide rimmed drivers definitely create nicks in trees more easily. Over time, they can hurt certain types of trees, and really affect young trees or smaller vegetation. So yeah, from a sustainability standpoint, Harold has a great point.

I wish we could all throw ultrastars or pulsars...all we'd need is a target for them. That would really be interesting since the tie in with ultimate would become readily apparent.

lol seriously.. its far more sustainable than putting up a sports arena or whatever..

 

[Peterb]

lol seriously.. its far more sustainable than putting up a sports arena or whatever..

That's a false premise. The facts are that disc golf, while highly sustainable, would be more so if the discs weren't as fast and the edges not as thin.

 

[JBryant]

This just means I can sell all my high speed stuff as OOP and make tons of money! :thmbup:

But seriously, if this is about safety then this is just silly. I can just as easily get gashed by a teebird as I can by a nuke.

There should just be a cap where it is now and leave it. Let the disc makers concentrate on tweaking putters/mids/and current drivers. Isn't the disc golf 'disc' market already saturated with too many discs? We really don't need anymore. Concentrate on making the current molds into 'quality' molds.