Qikly's Bag - A Work in Progress

[Qikly]

Hello board!

I'm a newbie, both to this forum and to disc golf in general. Been hovering around here for several weeks now, and finally decided to ask my own questions for a change. Many thanks in advance for any and all help.

First, a quick synopsis: I started playing a few weeks ago (not counting one round undertaken ~6 years ago under questionable levels of sobriety), and have really taken to the sport. I'm a composer by trade, which means a lot of hours spent at my desk inside: disc golf seems to be a perfect way to break that up when needed. There are two nearby courses in New Orleans (where I live), including one a 15 minute drive away. When I can't make it out to a course, I have a park around the corner from my apartment that I can go throw at. So I've been getting at least a bit of time in on most nights this past month, and have seen a lot of improvement.

I've been doing a lot of reading up/video watching, and have really taken the "start slow, sort your form out first" advice to heart (reminds me of learning instruments - I enjoy the labor of the process). Garublador's post on building a bag has been especially helpful. I started off by buying a 150 g Skeeter and a 175 g Aviar Classic (both DX). At this point, I'm throwing the Aviar around 175'-200' comfortably. The skeeter varies a bit more, but I'd say achieving 225' is easy, and I've probably pushed 300' a few times. Just to give an idea of where things stand throwing-wise. I've been working a lot of release angles, and find that, generally speaking, I can get either disc to go in the general direction of where I want. Which is, of course, a good thing.

I'm happy with the skeeter - it seems like a good mid to learn on, and I find it to be both accurate and shapeable. Perhaps I'll grow out of it eventually, but for now, I have a mid locked down. As far as the Aviar: while it does the job, I've suffered from a seemingly-improbable number of bounce outs/brushes with the chains, which has had me wanting to try out a stickier disc. I'm leaning towards a Soft or Supersoft Voodoo right now.

I have two main questions. One is about my first driver: after doing a lot of research, I've settled on a Cyclone. It's a bit faster than the most beginner of beginning drivers, which is a conscious choice: I'm a pretty big guy (former wrestler), so I feel like once I get my technique down, I'll be able to handle the slight uptick in speed. I'd like a disc that's versatile, and that I can grow into. From what I've read, the Cyclone meets those requirements. I've been ordering through Disc Golf Center - they have a D Cyclone in 149 or 167 available, and I'm currently leaning towards the lighter weight. I want to make achieving distance as easy on myself as possible right now. If anything, the potential squirriliness of throwing a lighter weight will be useful in diagnosing my technique issues.

Also, I'm choosing to stay away from the Leopard: my brother has one, so I've had the chance to throw it on a few occasions, and I was not a fan of either the feel or the flight of that disc. So I'm open to other options (Cheetah and Eagle X were the other two that stuck in my mind), but I'd prefer to avoid the Leopard.

So, (a long) question one: thoughts on the Cyclone as a beginner driver, going 149 g vs 167ish g, and/or other directions to move in?

Question two: Garublador and others had suggested starting with an overstable driver in order to learn to work with that sort of a disc. I like this idea: I'm trying to keep things as bare as possible (both because it's my style and because I'm on a budget), but the overstable disc seems unique and useful enough to try and get comfortable with. However, I'm a bit hesitant to pick up a driver as my beginner's overstable, both because the speed is out of my comfort zone and because the course I'm most likely to play on is almost exclusively shortish par 3s. So I was thinking of starting with an overstable mid, such as a Drone or Gator, instead. Leaning towards the Drone. Any thoughts?

I know this is a bit, or more than a bit, on the wordy side. Thanks for bearing with my newbie enthusiasm! Any comments on this points, or any other tips, etc, on anything (practice routines, ideal disc weights for drivers and mids, etc), would be appreciated.

Again, my thanks!

 

[Crazy Runner Guy]

So, (a long) question one: thoughts on the Cyclone as a beginner driver, going 149 g vs 167ish g, and/or other directions to move in?

Welcome to the boards - I'm a big fan of the Cyclone. I'd go with the 167ish. Cyclones are stable enough to be a little forgiving of form flaws, but they will also show those flaws to you and allow you to correct them. Lighter discs are less forgiving, so a heavier weight is also better in that regard. If later you decide that you like the mold, have developed a clean release (i.e. no fluttering, called OAT/Off-axis-torque, on release), then you can look at something lighter.

It's good that you're getting the Cyclone in D (base) plastic. You'll then learn how the disc wears in better than say, something in a more durable (like X) plastic.

So I was thinking of starting with an overstable mid, such as a Drone or Gator, instead. Leaning towards the Drone. Any thoughts?

Sounds like you read Garublador's How to Build a Bag thread.
The Gator and Drone fall into the "stupidly overstable" mid slot for most players, and they are designed to do a few things really well.

I recently came across this thread: Are Overstable Mids Pointless? The basic upshot of the original poster was anything you can do with an overstable mid, you can also do with powering down an overstable fairway driver and keep your bag to fewer molds/discs. By learning to throw a driver powered down, you develop more as a disc golfer because you learn to adapt your throw to the discs you have instead of adapting your discs to the throws you need.

I think if you're going to go as minimal as possible and being a relative beginner, you can likely skip the stupidly overstable mid slot. Your better bet is to get a driver which is overstable by design and learn to throw that at full and less-than-full power rather than getting an overstable mid. Common suggestions you'll hear on the boards: Firebird; Banshee; XXX. A Banshee is a speed 7 - the same as your Cyclone. If you must get an overstable mid, I recommend something like a Roc or a Wasp. Each has a nice bead on the bottom of the rim, feel like a Cyclone in your hand, and are overstable enough to handle all-but gale-force winds and not stupidly overstable. (you'll want that driver for those days).

Good luck, and stick with minimalism.

 

[Qikly]

Thanks for the thoughts, CRG.

I appreciate the advice on weight for the Cyclone; I've been flip-flopping on that one a lot. I don't have any problem throwing my 175 g Aviar, so I imagine I should be fine throwing the heavier Cyclone. I guess I just wanted to maximize my distance with it by going lighter, but the reasons you gave for choosing the heavier version make a lot of sense.

That thread on overstable mids is very helpful food-for-thought. Given my predilection for learning how to get as much out of a single mold as possible, it makes sense to learn to power down a driver, since "power-upping" a mid isn't nearly as much of an option. I'll likely stew over my options some more, but the Banshee seems a likely candidate. I certainly don't think I'd like to go faster than that.

Again, many thanks for the feedback. It's extremely useful.

 

[Qikly]

I have a follow-up question re: the Banshee. I've never thrown one before. The ratings are very similar to a Cyclone's, minus the HSS. Would the discs be that different? I'm assuming they would be (I know ratings aren't everything, by a long shot), but I was curious to see if I could get any opinions on that. I just wasn't sure if I'd be able to work the Cyclone for similar hyzer shots, etc, or if its HSS is enough to get it moving on a different line.

 

[Crazy Runner Guy]

You're right, take ratings with a grain of salt.

Sounds like you may be confusing a hyzer shot with a shot designed to fade. A hyzer is a release angle, where the far edge of the disc is lower than your hand on release. Fade is the tendency for the disc to turn left toward the end of its flight as it slows down (RHBH). The effect may be the same - both discs will end left, it's just a matter of what line you want and how the disc gets there.

The difference between a Cyclone and something more overstable when thrown with any release angle is that the more overstable will tend to fade fist, all things being equal. That Cyclone will hold any line you put it on, and will have a nice predictable, gentle fade.

Don't worry too much about the speed rating of the disc that fits your stupidly overstable slot, so long as the disc is overstable by design and not speed and not otherwise too fast (i.e. a Nuke OS or a Max are overstable by design and very fast.). Those OS discs are meant to be thrown into a headwind, and a headwind makes a disc fly more understable because in effect the disc is going through the air faster than your throw (because the wind speed would be added to the disc speed). Thus, you can throw a faster disc in your overstable slot than you might normally be able to. Of my current bag - see signature - my OS driver, a Firebird - is the fastest disc I throw, being at speed 9. Teebirds and Cyclones are 7, Roc is a 4, and Rhynos are 2.

 

[Qikly]

Thanks again for the feedback, CRG.

I guess I was worried about the Banshee and the Cyclone overlapping too much in terms of function. It doesn't seem like that's the case though - rather, it sounds like the Banshee is more overstable than the Cyclone enough to warrant having both in my bag. It'll be good to get an OS disc in my repertoire - I was out yesterday on my home course, which is pretty open, and my 150 g Skeeter was getting pushed around to all hell.

That's a nice tip to know about the relationship between OS discs, headwinds, and speed versus the normal speed I throw. I hadn't heard that before.

I'll probably go with a 165ish g Banshee - still want to keep things on the light side.

 

[Rhynos4life]

I'll probably go with a 165ish g Banshee - still want to keep things on the light side.

Good call. There is no shame in throwing lighter discs although some may say otherwise.

 

[Qikly]

Yeah, I would say that disc weights are still something that I'm figuring out. I was out the other day throwing in the park, tweaking my form and trying different things, and I noticed how much more forgiving the 175 Aviar was than the 150 Skeeter. The Aviar seemed much more resilient to any mistakes I would make - it would show me that they'd been made, but it seemed much more likely to "bounce back" from a wonky release. I also noticed the obvious difference in stability between the two discs in the wind.

At this beginning stage, I image it's just a question of trying out different weights and getting a sense of what I want to use in what conditions and for what roles.

 

[Qikly]

Right, so I picked up some of the discs discussed above. Right now the bag stands at:

Drivers
- 167 g D Cyclone: workhorse driver
- 166 g DX Banshee: overstable driver, powered down for overstable midrange shots

Mids
- 167 g DX Skeeter: brand new, very workable
- 150 g DX Skeeter: beaten in enough to where it's starting to flip noticeably; especially good for anhyzer lines

Putter
- 175 g DX Aviar Classic

Got my first real work in with the drivers today. The Banshee instantly opened up a whole new series of lines for me - I didn't use it regularly, but on the shots I did use it, I wouldn't have wanted to use any other disc. Very excited to have added it to my arsenal. I like how the Cyclone feels, and had a few really successful drives with it. Still, I feel as though I have a lot to learn about it, as I didn't feel confident with my control over it on the whole. Seems like it will be a good driver to learn with, though.

Both drivers failed to consistently fly farther than my Skeeter (which I throw an average of 200'-225', and occasionally higher), so I still have some technique work to do until I'm really capitalizing on there speed. There were a few instances where I really nailed a throw with the Cyclone and it went ~275', which was nice to see, and I do feel as though throwing them farther requires less effort. Now it's just a matter of getting comfortable with them.

There were a few times where the Cyclone jumped up, then hooked hard left and came crashing down to earth. Any ideas on what the culprit of this might be? It didn't always seem to be a nose-angle issue, as there were times where the disc would come out relatively flat, then leap up suddenly before taking a dive left. The wind, maybe? It was an open course, which is susceptible to gusts. The Banshee seemed to similarly die prematurely at times. Perhaps it's simply a lack of not getting the discs up to their proper speed.

I must say, I'm really fond of the Skeeters, although the lighter one is getting temperamental as it beats in. I can eventually see myself getting one in Star or R-Pro plastic, to hold its condition longer. New, they seem extremely workable to me. Any reason they're not more popular? Is it just that they're a relatively new mold?

I'm not currently sold on my Aviar as a long-term choice of putter. It does the job, but there's something about how it flies that doesn't appeal to me. Too neutral, maybe? Part of it is just getting used to putting, and throwing powered-down shots, but I think part of it is the disc, too. I think I may pick up a Voodoo with my next purchase.

Besides the putter, I'm committed to working with these molds until my game really develops. As I said above, the learning the Banshee is particularly exciting, since I feel as though it opens up a lot of new shots to my game.

As always, any thoughts/comments/questions are appreciated!

 

[tdschrock1]

I have thrown a skeeter for a while in he past. If you like something a little more durable, try an x comet. They are glidey and neutral

 

[Dan Ensor]

Sounds like nose angle issues on the Cyclone/Banshee. Especially the part where you say they come out flat. They should come out nose down, not flat. You might post a pic of your grip and, if you can, a video of you throwing.

 

[Qikly]

Thanks, Dan. I'll work on getting some documentation. In the interim, I'll pay more attention to the nose angle; at present, I've been focusing on getting them to come out flat in the release, but perhaps I'm overcompensating. Both drivers definitely seemed to stall out at ~225' most of the time, and I'm not exactly sure of the cause.

I have thrown a skeeter for a while in he past. If you like something a little more durable, try an x comet. They are glidey and neutral

Thanks for the suggestion, Cyclone. Any reason you would prefer a Comet to a Skeeter, since both are available in more durable plastic? Also, any particular cause for you moving on from the Skeeter? I'm always curious, as I've heard several say that they started out using a Skeeter but moved beyond it.

 

[Qikly]

Sorry for the double post, but I just wanted to add that you are indeed right, Dan: I've done some reading on proper nose angle, and I've definitely been throwing incorrectly, with the nose up significantly higher than it should be. I had no idea that the nose should be angled down, parallel with the forearm.

I hope to get a chance to do some field work later today, so that will give me a chance to try and make the necessary adjustments. I'm curious to see the results! Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Qikly]

Just a little update.

For the moment, the bag remains the same, but I'm planning on trying out a new mid and a new putter. I have the putter pretty much locked up - a Voodoo, probably of the SSS variety - but I'm still waffling a bit on the mid. I'd like something neutral and glidey, comparable to a Skeeter in that regard, but something that powers down better than a Skeeter, so that it can better cover the shots between 75' and 150' - right now my Skeeter feels a bit squirrilly in this range, which strikes me as oxymoronic for a midrange disc. At least, for what I'd like my midrange to cover.

So anyway, I'm leaning towards a Comet, but also contemplating a Fuse. The former seems to be a bit more versatile, but the latter seems like it will be a bit more user-friendly. Eventually it comes down to just trying them out and seeing what I prefer, but if anyone has any input on this, I'd be glad to hear it. At present, I don't have a preference as to bead vs non-bead - still not enough experience to prefer one over the other.

Eventually I imagine I'll get a slightly more overstable mid to complement the neutral one, but at present, I'm trying to keep things as basic as possible. That's part of why I'm leaning towards the Comet - seems like it will cover more lines than the Fuse (although only slightly so, and perhaps that's not really true). I'll continue to read around the boards and mull it over, but right now the Comet has the slight edge, although I'm itching to try out a Lat disc after all the good things I hear about them.

 

[Frigobar]

Welcome to disc golf and the forums!

First of all, if you like something, throw it! Don't let people persuade you away from something, but definitely don't be afraid to try something new. If you have friends that play, see if they'll let you try out some of their discs and if you don't, make some!

My advice to you is the same I give to all my friends: Try a Buzzz. It's incredibly user friendly and masks many form issues until you get them down from practice and it's insanely reliable. Once you use it 2 or 3 rounds, you'll know exactly what it does each and every time you toss it.

Drivers, I'm not so great on yet, I'm constantly trying new ones and replacing old ones. You should find a physical store and actually FEEL them. See if the disc feels good in your hand. For you, I'd suggest looking at some favorite drivers of the community: Flick, Predator, Valkyrie, Wraith, and Teebird all seem to be highly reliable and user friendly. Since you have power, I'd say stay above 165g for weights. In my personal experience, anything below that gets super unreliable and will either flip over or turn into a worm burner, but your experience may vary!

For putters, it's really all about preference and how it feels in your hand. You will most likely not lose these. I really only have 3 that I've ever enjoyed, the Challengers, the Wizards, and the soft Anode. Challengers seem to be a staple in pro bags around the world, but I traded mine in for a super grippy Wizard to grab the chains. I recently (in the past 4-5 months) swapped over to a Soft Anode, which is more expensive, but it just feels so good in my hand and that leads me to be more confident when putting. Really, it's all about your personal tastes, so go grab some and "feel" them out!

All in all, the game is all about your personal experience. You seem to be like me, in that you do a ton of research before making a purchase. If you have an analytical mind like that, do what I've done in the past and make a list of discs you'd like to try and take notes on what you read on the forums. Buzzz's and Roc's have a massive following, they're popular because they're consistent molds, the trick is finding one that suits your play style. Heck, if you like throwing a Groove (pretty much considered the worst disc of all time because of inconsistent molding and flight characteristics) then Groove it up!

But from my extensive research the most popular discs in each major "slot" are as follows:

Driver: Predator (which I still haven't thrown...)
Midrange: Buzzz is tied with the Roc
Putter: Challenger is tied with the Aviar

These discs may not be the longest, fastest, most/least stable, but they're consistent and that's key in the wonderful world of disc golf.

I hope this was useful to you and I'm sorry it's so expansive.

 

[Qikly]

Thanks, Frigobar! No need at all to apologize - I'm very appreciative of you taking the time to outline your thoughts.

I had to chuckle that you caught onto my thorough-/analytical-ness - is it that obvious? Yup, I like to read up, and I already have a list going of future discs to try, or slots I want to audition discs for. Right now, I'm primarily searching for a putter (leaning towards trying out some SSS Voodoos - I've held them in my hand and really loved the feel), and a slightly overstable mid (primarily for in-the-wind duties). For the latter slot, I've contemplated the standards (Buzzz and Roc), as well as possibly trying a Gateway Warrior or a Lat 64 Pain. I just bought a Z Comet last week, and have *really* enjoyed it, so I'm anticipating that that will become my workhorse. I'm especially keen on the Comet's ability to get up to speed relatively easily, which is a quality I'm learning I like in a mid. With that in mind, I've been leaning towards a Buzzz or Roc, since the other mids I've entertained are generally a bit faster (I have my Cyclone for speed/drives, so I don't need to worry about that in a mid). I know the Roc is a common accompaniment for the Comet, since they apparently have similar feels (haven't held a Roc yet), but I've of course heard good things about the Buzzz, too. So we'll see where I start - I'm probably going to hold out making any big purchase until Christmas comes around, when I'll have an excuse to go crazy. But I'll tick another box in the "Buzzz" column, based on your vote.

Good point about weight. I started off with a 150 g Skeeter, but as that beat in, it quickly became uncontrollable/uber-flippy. I've already settled into a comfort level of upper 160s+; my 167 Cyclone seems to fly really well for me, and to shrug off the wind.

Thanks again for your thoughts! I'm really finding that I enjoy the research end of this new hobby of mine, and I'm quite fond of the personal side of building a bag. I have a lot of work left to do! Still need to find a playing partner; will likely join the local league here at some point, once I've improved a bit...

 

[Frigobar]

Can't go wrong with a Buzzz or Roc, they're super solid discs. It's interesting you have a Z Comet as a workhorse, that exact disc is my workhorse and favorite to throw. SSS Voodoos are nice too, putters are a super personal choice and no one can really fault any real choice as long as it's marked as a putter. I know a guy who throws a Graboide (mostly considered a joke in the DG universe) better than most folks with "real" putters and a guy that putts with a midrange (doesn't carry a putter at all) very effectively.

If your drivers are stalling out, you may be throwing them too high or with the nose up on release. That's great for glider discs like our Comets, not so much for most drivers. That being said, I recommend you purchase or at least play with a stable or understable control driver.

To make things easy, let's say a Gold Line River 165-169g for your preference. It's a stable control driver that with act very similarly to the comet, but glide farther. It's like a longer, more wind resistant Z Comet. If that doesn't add distance and fix some of the stall issues, I'll be very surprised. On top of that, you can use it to diagnose OAT (off axis turn) in your throwing motion, but the comet should be doing that just as well. It's a little pricey, but it's really worth it and it'll last longer and break in slower. The Opto plastic is prettier, but changes the discs flight characteristics enough to make it a different (but still useful!) disc.

The second recommendation is a cheaper one and a common one, a TeeBird. DX plastic is popular, cheap and breaks in quickly. People love this disc. Higher grade plastics make this more stable, harder to break in, more expensive but last longer. Similar weights.

The final driver suggestion is a fail safe. Anyone and everyone can throw a Leopard. It's simply the best beginner's driver of all time. The same plastics as the TeeBird for the same reasons. Probably the most thrown driver of all time. I hate the thing. I have no justification for why and I can throw them quite well, but I just despise the disc. Maybe because it was my first fairway driver and was God-awful abysmally dull yellow and it was never spectacular for me, just reliable, consistent, and boring. It's the cheapest and simplest option though, so I feel obligated to mention it.

Seriously check out the River and/or TeeBird though, just search the forums and you'll quickly find the 100+ page threads of love for each of the discs as testament to their awesomeness.

 

[Qikly]

Thanks again for all the comments, Frigobar.

The stalling out thing is definitely the first real stumbling block in my technique. Between self-diagnosis and some comments I've gotten from others, I'm pretty sure my problem is not in the grip, but rather in a tendency to jerk my arm up at the last moment before releasing. I'm just beginning to work on this, so we'll see how it goes.

I have an X Cyclone on the way. My current plan is to beat that in, then get an ESP Cyclone. That way I'd have the ESP for overstable shots, and the X for stable/understable shots. I like the Cyclones more and more as I work with them; now all I need to do is get over this arm jerk/nose high issue.

All that said, your suggestion of the River has me seriously tempted. I've read a lot about the disc, and actually bought one for my brother in test plastic. He loves it. Still have never thrown one myself, though I held one the other day in Opto and really loved the feel of both the plastic and the disc. However, from what I understand, Gold Line is slightly more US, so if I were to pick up a River, I'd probably snag it in that plastic to distinguish it as far as possible from my Cyclones. Hmm...a Cyclone/River pairing could be really wonderful.

By the by, I share your irrational hatred for the Leopard!

 

[Everstreet121]

Why all the Leo hate? lol

But for realz, you can never go wrong with stable/understable fairway pairing. I like the Teebird/Leo combo, and it sounds like a Cyclone/River combo will be just as effective. Never thrown either of those though, but by the numbers seems similar.

 

[Qikly]

To be fair, I threw the Leo when I was just starting out, and I probably just didn't know what the heck I was doing. Actually, I definitely didn't know what I was doing. But it left a sour taste in my mouth, that's for sure.

Glad to hear I'm on the right track. I've definitely noticed a gap in my game for any shots over 275' - I'm using my Comet for those right now, but I just can't get the length for those longer holes. The Cyclone gets billed as a slower Eagle a lot - lots of fade when new, and it beats into straight. My D is pretty beat - really beat, in fact - but it still wants to fight its way out of anhyzer lines, no matter what I do. It'd be nice to have an option besides trying to force the Cyclone over or having the Comet come up short. Plus, it's an excuse to try the River, which I've heard an absurd amount of hype about.