Question on Glide

[KDinIN]

As many on these forums, I am a hobbyist disc golfer who really enjoys the game and would like to get better. One way to get better, is to increase the distance and accuracy from the tee box. Obviously there are other ways to get better, upshots, putting, etc. However, driving distance does have some measurable effect on scores, so it seems like a good place to look to consistently shave some strokes.

That being said, I find myself in a bit of a predicament. I feel like my form is decent (yes I know, form videos are the best way to find out, however, this isn't about that...), with decent amount of snap, that I should be able to throw some "faster" discs. Currently, I just started using a stalker off the tee, after trying to focus on midranges for the summer. When I throw, most anything really, I feel like I spin it on a good flat line, it flies its speed, and then dies. However, there are occasions when I throw a disc, it flies its line, and then I see this thing I can only describe as glide take over, and it ... keeps going. Most of the time, this happens on an elevated tee pad of 5-10 feet.

This got me thinking. Could my flat, not terribly far off the ground straight shots be missing something. Altitude! It seems like, some of the biggest arms throw their discs way higher than I would ever dare, but they never seem to have nose angle issues.

Long story short, it seems like to harness the true glide of a disc, the disc has to have some altitude to it. If that is the case (And I could be wrong in that assumption), how do I throw higher without having nose angle issues?

 

[TAFL]

Long story short, it seems like to harness the true glide of a disc, the disc has to have some altitude to it.

True. I curse quite often when I put a throw out on the line I wanted, only no air under it. What could have been a spectacular throw won't go far if it's not in the air long enough to get anywhere.

If that is the case (And I could be wrong in that assumption), how do I throw higher without having nose angle issues?

<cue SW>

 

[slowplastic]

I bet it's nose angle issues. Discs power forward better/longer if they fly nose down. Maybe on an elevated teepad you are throwing more nose down and on a downward trajectory (slightly, small differences matter). This would also have the effect of increasing the cruising velocity slightly and keeping the disc "up to speed" longer.

I would look at nose angle first, and by that, checking your grip: https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/gripittoripit.shtml

Also the harder you throw, the easier it is to throw a disc high and get it to keep powering forward. But these high throws still have the nose down relative to trajectory. Usually if the disc is 10-12' high it has enough height to get to where it's supposed to go and show initial signs of fade. Throwing higher than that, on a golf type shot, may get a bit more distance but it will also accentuate the fade portion of the flight. Of course, this is a generality, as all discs are a bit different and it also really matters on how hard you are throwing (the harder you throw, you can get away with some line drive lasers).

If your discs are hitting the ground before the fade portion of the flight, you are definitely losing some distance.

 

[armiller]

I think slowplastic is probably right, and I trust him more than I trust myself as far as this stuff goes.

I do want to say something that we often overlook. When we talk about "nose angle," it's not always clear exactly what we mean. My impression is that most disc golfers mean the angle of the disc with respect to the ground, or to the "surface of the earth" in general. In physics and aerodynamics, the term "angle of attack" is used instead. That's the angle with respect to the direction of the disc's movement.

SO, here are a two situations:
1) You throw the disc perfectly horizontal, but with the nose up (say 20 degrees). This throw will likely climb too much, lose lots of speed, and stall out. In this case, typical "nose angle" and "angle of attack" are the same. This is not a recipe for good distance, and bears a striking resemblance to the famous "noob hyzer."
2) You throw the disc forward but at a bit of an angle (say 10-15 degrees) with respect to the ground. But your form is such that the disc is roughly parallel to the ground (say 5-10 degrees). Notice that the angle of attack is actually negative at the beginning of the flight. SW22 sometimes talks about the "perfect angle," and I think he means matching these two angles to get the maximum distance from the initial turn phase as well as the fade phase at the end. Am I correct?

In the "physics 101" thread from a month or so ago, john63 was talking about "turn" being the phase of flight where AOA is negative, and "fade" being the phase where AOA is positive. I recall there being some disagreement, but I'm inclined to think that's a good generalization.

Maybe everyone knew that already. But we don't usually say it. In particular, I've noticed that angle of attack has tons of impact on high anny flex shots. Get it right, and you've thrown a beauty. Get it wrong, and throws can be impressively ugly.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah I'm definitely meaning nose angle relative to trajectory, so thought of as angle of attack.

Generally though, if you are throwing a line drive with a flat-ish release, your disc should just look like ____ from the back, you shouldn't be able to see the flight plate at all really. There are subtleties obviously, but if you can see the flight plate you are likely throwing too nose-up.

 

[sidewinder22]

Long story short, it seems like to harness the true glide of a disc, the disc has to have some altitude to it. If that is the case (And I could be wrong in that assumption), how do I throw higher without having nose angle issues?

Practice and watch your swing plane/disc alignment.

 

[KDinIN]

I think slowplastic is probably right, and I trust him more than I trust myself as far as this stuff goes.

I do want to say something that we often overlook. When we talk about "nose angle," it's not always clear exactly what we mean. My impression is that most disc golfers mean the angle of the disc with respect to the ground, or to the "surface of the earth" in general. In physics and aerodynamics, the term "angle of attack" is used instead. That's the angle with respect to the direction of the disc's movement.

So I am struggling to get the picture that you are painting, not because your explanation isn't good, but because I struggle to visualize stuff like this without pictures lol. I have found some consistency throwing flat and horizontal, basically I throw mostly laser beams that get a bit of fade at the end. I always try visualize my nose angle down on release, and try and push hard down with my thumb. I normally don't see much of the flight plate on this kind of release. But should the nose of the disc literally be angled down (below horizontal?) when I throw? How does that not turn into me throwing the disc into the ground 20 feet in front of me? To be fair, I have had my fair share of those throws...

Practice and watch your swing plane/disc alignment.

To be fair, I don't understand what this means, however, I know that you know what you are talking about with stuff like this, so should I do a search for an explanation, or will you willingly repeat?

 

[sidewinder22]

2) You throw the disc forward but at a bit of an angle (say 10-15 degrees) with respect to the ground. But your form is such that the disc is roughly parallel to the ground (say 5-10 degrees). Notice that the angle of attack is actually negative at the beginning of the flight. SW22 sometimes talks about the "perfect angle," and I think he means matching these two angles to get the maximum distance from the initial turn phase as well as the fade phase at the end. Am I correct?

For the part most yes. It's funny talking about flight angles because it's all dictated at the moment of release (save for wind gusts). You have to predict the apex fall through angle for the change of nose/trajectory for maximum glide.

 

[sidewinder22]

To be fair, I don't understand what this means, however, I know that you know what you are talking about with stuff like this, so should I do a search for an explanation, or will you willingly repeat?

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/gripittoripit.shtml
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/telegraphing.shtml
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/angles.shtml
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/distancelines.shtml
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/distancesecrets.shtml

 

[armiller]

So I am struggling to get the picture that you are painting, not because your explanation isn't good, but because I struggle to visualize stuff like this without pictures lol. I have found some consistency throwing flat and horizontal, basically I throw mostly laser beams that get a bit of fade at the end. I always try visualize my nose angle down on release, and try and push hard down with my thumb. I normally don't see much of the flight plate on this kind of release. But should the nose of the disc literally be angled down (below horizontal?) when I throw? How does that not turn into me throwing the disc into the ground 20 feet in front of me? To be fair, I have had my fair share of those throws...

I'm not so good at the practical side, or making your form actually work. That's where I totally defer to guys like sidewinder and slowplastic. You sound like you probably throw better than I do, or at least have a better idea of what good form looks like. I was just trying to say that "nose angle" or "angle of attack" is NOT relative to the ground or the surface of the earth. It's relative to the direction of the disc's movement. Even your nice, flat throws probably are going up a little bit at release. And the downward thumb pressure might already be dropping the nose a little bit so that there's a downward angle of attack. Not sure if that helps...

Actually, this probably has a lot to do with sidewinder's comment about swing plane and grip alignment. I would imagine that your swing plane determines the trajectory, or line of movement, for the disc, whereas the "grip alignment" is what determines the angle of attack. Getting them to work together is the trick.

 

[slowplastic]

So in this image the disc is lined up to the forearm, due to grip. If the disc were thrown like this, the disc should come out "flat" or neutral with respect to the swing plane (forearm).

I typically line up my grip so that the disc is ever so slightly angled down of the forearm...the red line downwards of the blue line, so they would intersect somewhere to the right of the grip, in relation to that image. Whether that is what is actually happening in a throw or not, I don't know, but that's how I feel it is.

So yes I do actually try to throw nose down of neutral, and the disc will not just dive into the ground. I know it's a completely different thing, but think of a helicopter angled downwards so the blades pull the helicopter forwards...the lift is propelling it ahead. Please to others, I do not want to get into a physics argument over this simple image/comparison.

Here's a question:
Can you get understable discs to turn over and carry to the right (RHBH) for a long portion of their flight? Or do they typically flip up to flat and glide straight before fading?

 

[TheBeardedFatGuy]

So yes I do actually try to throw nose down of neutral, and the disc will not just dive into the ground. I know it's a completely different thing, but think of a helicopter angled downwards so the blades pull the helicopter forwards...the lift is propelling it ahead

That's actually a very apt analogy, at least visually and with regards to lift.

I would add this to the conversation: Elevation changes can mess with your head. With me this means the opposite of what you'd think it does. If I'm throwing on a downslope, I tend to throw too high. If I'm throwing upslope I tend to throw too low. Where normally I throw fairly perpendicular to gravity (i.e. flat), I inadvertently tilt too far down for upslopes and too far up for downslopes. I'm talking just a few degrees, but the result is obvious. On upslopes this means I hit the ground long before I mean to, and on downslopes I get so much air so the fade is amplified way too much.

 

[jtencer]

Back to the OP:

One way to throw with more height without running into nose-angle issues is to throw a hyzer-flip. Another way is to throw a big swooping anhyzer.

 

[Discgolfer48]

Here's my take on glide. The glide ratings are based on a Pro magnum arm. I watch videos of the pro's throwing the discs and they just keep gliding and gliding. Really looks great and that's why they are sponsored. I've bought a few discs with different glide ratings. I have yet to see anything like the videos. Not much difference between 4-6 glide fairway drivers. I see a hint of more glide on the higher speed drivers but not much.

 

[Rumpled]

Glide, it seems to me, is a combination of lift, stability, weight and speed. I tend to throw low and flat like the OP, but I don’t throw most discs fast enough to both create lift and overcome the disc’s low speed stability. My longest throws have been with high speed, lighweight understable discs thrown into a light headwind as I don’t generate enough speed on my own to create the lift, turn and late fade for which the disc was designed. My sweet spot, discovered after an embarrassing number of disc purchases, are understable, 9/10 speed discs between 158 and 164g. These give me the most consistent full flight performance.

IMHO, nose angle varies depending upon the disc stability and speed of the throw. The faster you throw, the more nose up you can and perhaps should throw as you’ll overpower the discs high speed stability. I expect many may disagree with me, but that has been my experience and observance.

 

[Twistedhorse]

Here's my take on glide. The glide ratings are based on a Pro magnum arm. I watch videos of the pro's throwing the discs and they just keep gliding and gliding. Really looks great and that's why they are sponsored. I've bought a few discs with different glide ratings. I have yet to see anything like the videos. Not much difference between 4-6 glide fairway drivers. I see a hint of more glide on the higher speed drivers but not much.

L64 glide 7 is it any different than glide 6 from other companies? yes, I feel the same that glide does very little like a river and something else with the same speed and less glide might just go the same distance.. well of course nose up and everything else will impact, but I haven't seen any other companies with glide 7, I'm kinda curious if l64 has found a way to make their disc glide more or if it just a marketing ploy

 

[RFrance]

Not so much about nose angle issues but more with the title of the thread. This video came out a couple of months before the OP.

 

[twistedraven]

The 7 glide is marketing bs on Latitude 64's behalf. I haven't experienced any breathtaking glide out of Rivers or Saints. In fact some of the glidiest discs I've seen have been rated as 5 or 4.

 

[RoDeO]

L64 glide 7 is it any different than glide 6 from other companies? yes, I feel the same that glide does very little like a river and something else with the same speed and less glide might just go the same distance.. well of course nose up and everything else will impact, but I haven't seen any other companies with glide 7, I'm kinda curious if l64 has found a way to make their disc glide more or if it just a marketing ploy

I actually do get some pretty amazing glide out of my Saint.

 

[ru4por]

The 7 glide is marketing bs on Latitude 64's behalf. I haven't experienced any breathtaking glide out of Rivers or Saints. In fact some of the glidiest discs I've seen have been rated as 5 or 4.

Both the River and Saint seem to have uncanny glide. I find both a bit nose sensitive though.