Rail lines with Discs and thumb/wrist placements

[zj1002]

My own input as a someone that learned on the original DGR theorycrafting...and this is a bit of a crazy ramble....

As I started to finally understand what it took and could replicate and then teach it, I changed some key wording that gets thrown around. These will mainly apply to steps (1) and (2)

I stopped using 3 words - Pull, Pause, Rotate. In place of them I used one phrase - Forward Movement. I found it harder to teach proper technique if I told someone to "pull in to start" and then "rotate the shoulder when it pauses". I could show them all day, but the way I was describing it was flawed. Instead of asking someone to pull inward, pause their shoulder, and then rotate - I now keep it as simple as elbow bent, move the disc forward by moving your front shoulder toward the target. As the elbow uncoils forward, everything will naturally rotate back on its own. You only have to focus on moving forward and keeping your arm/shoulder on the plane the disc needs to fly.

The shoulder naturally will pause on its own as long as you move it forward, you should NEVER be consciously trying to pause a shoulder. You will just throw off your timing and hurt yourself. Move your front shoulder forward on the line it needs to go on. If the elbow is bent and you are moving your weight forward, the back shoulder will follow suit and will naturally cause the pause/open as your body braces/shifts open.

The rest of the timing with holding on the disc through the apex of the arc, just takes some focused practice.

 

[Dan Ensor]

Hmm, looking at the Beto down video as well the pivot actually starts slightly earlier than I thought so I may have to redraw again, the disc starts coming away from the base of the hand somewhere between the 4th and 3rd to last discs in the sequence above which I suppose makes sense, it starts pivoting the second the thumb points past about 9 oclock.

Through the pivot, I believe you'd see a very distinct straight line that the disc is following (initial flight path). Basically, as your hand moves to the right, the disc is pivoting to the left, the two counteract and make the straight line.

I think.

(Whereas, in your pics, the disc is following an arc)

 

[EvanKRob]

I now keep it as simple as elbow bent, move the disc forward by moving your front shoulder toward the target. As the elbow uncoils forward, everything will naturally rotate back on its own. You only have to focus on moving forward and keeping your arm/shoulder on the plane the disc needs to fly.

The shoulder naturally will pause on its own as long as you move it forward, you should NEVER be consciously trying to pause a shoulder. You will just throw off your timing and hurt yourself. Move your front shoulder forward on the line it needs to go on. If the elbow is bent and you are moving your weight forward, the back shoulder will follow suit and will naturally cause the pause/open as your body braces/shifts open.

The rest of the timing with holding on the disc through the apex of the arc, just takes some focused practice.

When you say move your shoulder towards the target, I assume you mean after the reach back, turning your shoulder to the target so they end up pointing at the target and keep that rotation as opposed to leaning and driving the shoulder down the target line. I'm pretty sure i get it but I dont want others to be confused w/o having a visual.

 

[EvanKRob]

This is the part that confuses me. how do you get that angle in there? Reaching more wide/away from your line?

 

[zj1002]

When you say move your shoulder towards the target, I assume you mean after the reach back, turning your shoulder to the target so they end up pointing at the target and keep that rotation as opposed to leaning and driving the shoulder down the target line. I'm pretty sure i get it but I dont want others to be confused w/o having a visual.

My front shoulder is what starts my aim. As it moves forward with my hips, it opens up on its own. My elbow goes with it and moves into that same line/plane. As I feel my arm uncoil, I explode through the hit and hold on through the apex of the arc. All parts of my movement focused on the same path my front shoulder initially was headed down. Simple athletic motions, knees bent, on the toes - that is all you need to move any part of your body forward. I'm not a fan of actually driving hard actively with the shoulder. It will cause injuries.

 

[Dan Ensor]

This is the part that confuses me. how do you get that angle in there? Reaching more wide/away from your line?

It's more about getting the disc deep in the power zone. Without a wide backswing, that's pretty difficult.

 

[Countchunkula]

This is the part that confuses me. how do you get that angle in there? Reaching more wide/away from your line?

You've got it. Instead of reaching straight back (6 o'clock), reach back at about 7 o'clock. Check out Barry Schultz videos on YouTube. He has a noticeably wide pull.

 

[zj1002]

It's more about getting the disc deep in the power zone. Without a wide backswing, that's pretty difficult.

It also helps generate a lot more leverage in the throw.

You can see that diagram of the bounce in/out in my throw here. Unfortunately this video was shot from the wrong angle. But the disc starts wide, and then it comes deep into the pocket. You can see it stay as my body shifts open and my arm extends around it. I drop the disc lower than others as I throw a lot of nose down hyzer flips.

 

[rhatton1]

It helps having the disc lower than the arm(th disc somewhere between belt and navel) I'm sure I remember Blake saying he normally has the disc about 10" lower than his elbow as it helps to hold onto the disc through the hit. For me having that set up also helps keep the front shoulder closed and helps in punching the elbow out and getting he disc deep in the power pocket. (As always try it in slo mo and see, you can get it further forward before a lower arm chop with it lower than h elbow)

As for terminology I quite agree I may reword ( anyone with any other suggestions/additions) it that was just scribbling notes down for myself really as I was doing it. I have seen too many people trying to achieve a shoulder pause rather than achieve the motions/ body positions which produce the slight slowing down of the shoulders rotation. It's a misleading term.

 

[rhatton1]

Through the pivot, I believe you'd see a very distinct straight line that the disc is following (initial flight path). Basically, as your hand moves to the right, the disc is pivoting to the left, the two counteract and make the straight line.

I think.

(Whereas, in your pics, the disc is following an arc)

I just don't know! It all happens too quick, my own feel with it is when the disc breaks away from the bottom fingers and starts to pivot I am still pulling through across bouncing off the palm but at the same time pushing forward with the thumb , it seems to me that would create another arc on the way out right at the end. Your hand has to have pulled around the outside edge and be coming sideways to initiate the pivot if the disc was to go straight immediately then it would be a half hit I think
But I don't know for sure and my own feel of what i am doing is very often way off from reality, anyone shed light? I haven't found any video that really captures the frames slow enough all the way through the pivot which shows you how powerful it must be.

 

[Mocheez]

This is a PM I got from Blake in 2013 which talks about the pivot...

"ideally, the lock fingers won't release until well beyond the critical point and only an instant before the rip finger.

the critical point is sort of a lower boundary of this. anything below the critical point is a full slip. the critical point and slightly beyond is a partial slip / half hit. full hitting requires getting the disc way out in front before it pivots out.

also, there really isn't much of a pivot. it's more like bringing the edge of the disc around. if you do that, there doesn't need to be much of a pivot in the hand.

if you focus on the weight shift of the disc and bringing the outer edge around as far as you can, that should achieve most of what you are looking for."

 

[rhatton1]

Apologies for the lack of grammar above typing on
My phone isn't easy!!

 

[RFrance]

You've got it. Instead of reaching straight back (6 o'clock), reach back at about 7 o'clock. Check out Barry Schultz videos on YouTube. He has a noticeably wide pull.

That is a big tip for me today. I was having trouble getting my hip turn moving. Just came back from the field and this helped a lot. I've always noticed the diagram showing the pull from 7 o'clock but it just didn't click. Now it does.

 

[EvanKRob]

I really think I understand what is supposed to happen and the concept of getting it into the power pocket but how do you practice it to get the right feeling.

I'm not a spinner but I'm pretty sure I'm not on the rail either

 

[EvanKRob]

Ok read over this a few more times and have another question.

I've always been trying to pause my shoulders and never really got the feeling. Now assume I'm getting into the pocket correctly, I would be in the ruff pec position? From there Zj writes to uncoil your shoulders towards the target and the rest will happen. Doesn't this equate to a shoulder spinner?

 

[rhatton1]

I've got the office to myself today - If I find time I am going to try to make a video, showing the different rails and attempting to mimic body positions through them - difficult to do in slo mo but I'll give it a go and see how it works out.

Basically though what ZJ said is right (ZJ,were you the demo guy from the Yeti video a couple of years ago, it's been bugging my why your forum name was familiar and I think it might be that?) , shoulder spinning stops you loading the powerpocket as you have opened the shoulders before the elbow has even got forward.

What ZJ i describing is the loading and unloading of the power pocket, it loads with shoulder square allowing the elbow to punch out and the disc and lower arm to follow in, it starts to unload and the shoulders go with it (fractionally after the lower arm starts to chop, but so quick it will all feel as one movement)

 

[rhatton1]

also, there really isn't much of a pivot. it's more like bringing the edge of the disc around. if you do that, there doesn't need to be much of a pivot in the hand.

It's semantics again really, is it a pivot, is it a sling, is it the outer edge coming around? What's a satisfactory word to describe the motion? It's a second arc on top of the first.

For me the outer edge coming around is the Half hit, the sling/pivot/even more of the outeredge coming round as the thumb pushes and guides this motion is the Full Hit.

It's why the half hit feels like the disc is ripping (although less so than the slip) and the full hit feels more like you are pushing/guiding the disc out - you've pulled it into the second arc and then are just guiding it on its way.

 

[EvanKRob]

ZJ,were you the demo guy from the Yeti video a couple of years ago, it's been bugging my why your forum name was familiar and I think it might be that?)

yea that was him. It was referenced in another thread somewhere.

 

[EvanKRob]

What ZJ i describing is the loading and unloading of the power pocket, it loads with shoulder square allowing the elbow to punch out and the disc and lower arm to follow in, it starts to unload and the shoulders go with it (fractionally after the lower arm starts to chop, but so quick it will all feel as one movement)

well i hope you get a chance to make a video b/c it sounds like something I need to see explained.

 

[zj1002]

I've got the office to myself today - If I find time I am going to try to make a video, showing the different rails and attempting to mimic body positions through them - difficult to do in slo mo but I'll give it a go and see how it works out.

Basically though what ZJ said is right (ZJ,were you the demo guy from the Yeti video a couple of years ago, it's been bugging my why your forum name was familiar and I think it might be that?) , shoulder spinning stops you loading the powerpocket as you have opened the shoulders before the elbow has even got forward.

What ZJ i describing is the loading and unloading of the power pocket, it loads with shoulder square allowing the elbow to punch out and the disc and lower arm to follow in, it starts to unload and the shoulders go with it (fractionally after the lower arm starts to chop, but so quick it will all feel as one movement)

Yeah that was me throwing for Jay. That video turned out so awesome. I was a last minute fill in(and sick). None of that content was planned out, total freestyle. Shows you how great of a teacher Jay is. I've also been around on DGR since 2008ish. Not as active on the DGCR technique threads.