The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

[horsethief]

One last question (hopefully). Should I begin "gripping like a mofo" right as the elbow chop begins, or are you supposed to wait until right when the wrist extension occurs?

 

[JR]

I couldn't tell because i'm not aware of any scientific studies having been done of the matter and having abnormal anatomy i can't say things are for healthy people. I couldn't say for sure about myself either because i lack power and form in stopping the wrist.

The less arm muscle tension there is the faster the arm moves but that ain't the goal. The disc needs to move fast. Snap converts some of the previous movements into more speed to the disc. The better the snap the higher the efficiency of transfer of speed and spin from the previous movements is.

In practice everyone having different bodies need to test all variations from death grip before taking the first step to only clenching after the wrist has started to move to the right. Various pinch strengths and speeds of increasing pinch strength. Various amount of fingers in the grip too from two in the disc to four.

For me personally sending the clenching order halfway in the elbow chop has worked the best so far but i don't trust my limited experience with other versions enough to declare that timing the optimal for me at this time. I gained some power over the winter from weight lifting so i need to explore things for myself but i'm hampered by the need to learn toe heel toe pivot now that surgery a couple of weeks ago freed my ankle motion range to normal after 4 years. So far no joy. It will take time to gain experience and test everything for me and the results may be totally different to you.

 

[Blake_T1]

niq,

what i can say is that at 300-325' of power you still have something fundamentally wrong going on. in these cases it's most likely something screwy with the timing of your body rotation. the 250' with a putter is good... only throwing drivers 50' farther with a full throw is not.

the hit and rip are usually the same thing but i have started to separate them into different ideas but i use different terms.
the first concept is the "point of impact." this is the equivalent to a baseball player first touching the ball with the bat or a "jump stop" in basketball. at this point you experience the "tendon load" (plyometric) phenomenon. basically, your tendons and muscles tighten at this point.

the second concept is the "drive." this is equivalent to a baseball player breaking his wrists and driving the ball with the bat or the basketball player actually jumping. this is the "unloading of the tendons" that happen faster than usual since they were pre-loaded.

each lever of the body requires an abrupt change in speed or direction to make it fire. that being said, the tight gripping should happen as the wrist unloads, which happens as the elbow chop ends.

 

[horsethief]

I agree something is definitely wrong with my fundamentals. I now know that i'm applying the "power" too early and the disc is slipping out before the tendon unloading/rip happens. I was trying to get a feel for things sitting in my computer chair and here's what i came up with, maybe it can help with the secret technique? if you stand with you back up to a wall, and leave everything below your elbow loose. if you move your elbow from around your right pec into the stopped elbow position your forearm flaps open followed by your wrist. In a real throw, do i just want to enhance this exact motion/timing by adding strength/power to it but keeping the timing the same?

 

[JR]

Your idea has two components that need to be understood. Sequence of motions is correct with your description.

Timing changes with a real throw because you are already moving and the incidental motions and active foot pivot, hip twist and turning of the shoulders accelerate the throw. Even though the lower the body part is the more it has decelerated thanks to kinetic chain by the time the elbow chops and even more in the wrist chop. This means everything is gonna happen faster and there is a delay in the command from the brain reaching the hand and other delay in the fingers adding pinch power. Those need to be accounted for. At least until you've become automated with the pinch timing and strength.

You should definitely enhance the movement speed by using muscles to straighten the elbow fast fast fast. And additionally trying to snap the wrist. That is difficult to get right and won't be efficient without a pinch and stopping of the wrist.

 

[horsethief]

Yeah, I was experimenting a little with it and your grip naturally seems to tighten when you try to open your wrist. It really felt like, would you believe it, pounding a hammer... Hopefully I'll get to do some more testing tomorrow. Ordered 5 wizards today but wont get them until next week

 

[JR]

You've got the right idea in needing to test out different versions to see what suits you best now. They may not be the best for overall reaching your potential in the long run so i wouldn't draw far reaching conclusions and stop experimenting. After each winter people should test everything to see what changed. It may be worse or better depending on what you did in the winter. I suggest working out.

 

[horsethief]

just got back from a field session. My previous estimates of 250' with a putter (at a standstill) were quite a ways off... I tried to use some stupid program on my phone and it wasn't even close. I measured between 185' and 220' (at a standstill with a reachback) today on a football field but everything keeps slipping... I remembered someone saying something about the 70/30 grip pressure and tested that out. With the 70/30 grip pressure they stopped slipping and started flinging out! I then got a few (when they wouldn't slip) out to 250' and 260' (standstill with a reachback).

Moved up to my drivers just for shits and giggles, and was consistently throwing them around 350' and 360' (with an x-step). Normally it's like 1/30 that i can get one out to 350', so I'm definitely seeing some progress! I'll try to take some video next time maybe that can help point out some other obvious flaws...

Thanks for all the help

 

[horsethief]

reporting back after more work today, cranked one out to 400'! Most of them where in the 340' - 370' range though (most of them keep slipping out before i get the flinging sensation like a hoola-hoop on my index finger).

 

[JR]

That's disc pivot and snap so congratulations.

 

[horsethief]

So i've been doing some practice with the towel, and I think I've finally started to get an idea of what the "hit" is supposed to feel like. I think i was missing the pulling with my shoulders/upper arm as my elbow was nearing max extension. I think I'm actually pulling "through" the hit now and getting good disc pivots and what not (The "apex" that BW talks about actually makes sense now too). I didn't have a lot of room to practice yesterday but some of the putters and midranges i was practicing with I accidentally put on a trajectory that i thought was "too high." I thought they were just going to go up, stall out and drop off, but to my surprise, they just kind of leveled off and kept gliding forever with almost no fade...

So here's my question:
I am not feeling any wrist/tendon bounce (I felt this a week or two ago when i was practicing, but i have never felt it since then), and i'm also not feeling the "palm ejection" that should probably accompany the wrist/tendon bounce? Also, is it possible to have the palm ejection without the tendon bounce?

Are there any drills to practice getting a feel for the tendon bounce? I've experimented with a dish towel quite a few different ways but i'm not getting anything, maybe it's too light to load the wrist or maybe i'm not powering hard enough in the power zone?

Thanks in advance!

 

[JR]

Feeling and brain processing power are limited and funny. I have trouble stopping the wrist and need to work out that area. Unless it is approach distances. More power and i'm either overpowered, too late (tried way early timings and that doesn't seem to help so probably not the issue) or my subconscious protects my injured arm by loosening up or never allowing the conscious order to actively snap the wrist fully to go through then stop. Meh. It feels like the latter. As a consequence i have not felt the palm ejection many times at all. The drawback of the towel drill for me is that even though i don't get the POW!!! sound that Feldy and the rest of the top players do i still get an ok sound and the trajectory of the towel is fine. I just don't get the kind of physical feedback of the tendon bounce like i do with a disc that is unmistakable on harder bounces and easy to feel on less powerful ones once you realize what it feels like. Feeling it for the first time is the issue.

Power is certainly an issue. I don't recall exactly where i was distance wise before i felt the first tendon bounce but it was probably between 300-330'. I have had surgery so my anatomy is atypical so YMMV.

 

[horsethief]

I definitely know what it feels like. When I first started the right pec drills I took a little break by walking through my x-step and trying to keep my wrist semi-stiff and tried throwing at maybe 60% power. The feeling was unmistakable. What i remember trying to do was:
1) walk through my x-step
2) stiffen my wrist (maybe 40-60%, i cant remember now) right when i got to the power zone
3) accelerating my arm forward in a way that would "load" my wrist -- I don't know if this messed up my form or not, but i remember actually concentrating on trying to load my wrist
4) going through the rest of my throw at maybe 60-80% power
5) the sensation of my wrist springing open and discs launching across the little field i was practicing in

On a side note, i don't feel the palm ejection in the yo-yo drill either but i do get the disc pivot... Maybe it's happening and i just don't know it?

Yeah i cant get the whip cracking sound from the towel either that other people get, just a pop -- definitely not a whoosh. I figured the crack would come when I figured out how to actively open the wrist at the right time.

 

[JR]

I can't confirm for lack of personal success whether stopping the wrist is the difference between a pop with proper motion of a towel and a POW! of top players. I interpret getting only a pop as not doing something right or doing everything right with wimpy muscles not fast and powerful enough. Considering i lose out a lot in D and can't lift that heavy weights the lack of muscle power has some relevance but it doesn't rule out the chance of the wrist stopping being too wimpy or not there at all. The wrist active opening ain't enough alone you must retard the wrist quickly right after the active opening. Disclaimer i haven't tried towel drills this year and can snap mids harder and get longer flights now.

I haven't checked out recently if FWs have gained D but max D discs seem to fly the same. But i did have some low percentage surprise long QOLS shots when i tested it the last time i was out throwing so it might be that shorter winged FWs could improve more consistently. I played one course for the first time this season and reached some holes with mids that i used to throw a River on last year and overthrew a Roc on another hole where i had to nut a Buzzz usually not quite making it with 100 % power. Now the flattish top R-Pro Roc 174 (Buzzz is 180 Z) was thrown at 90 %. Powerball and weights might have helped some. Yay! Although having normal mobility in the ankle after surgery can explain the differences too what do i know?

 

[horsethief]

Do you mind elaborating on "retard the wrist quickly right after active opening"? I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that

 

[horsethief]

So I went to a football field for testing yesterday... Came back frustrated and dejected. I seemed to have lost about 50' of distance because i'm throwing all my drivers nose up now. Also, everything seems to be slipping right around the apex. The nose up I can deal with, but the slipping I'm not sure what to do. THEN, I woke up this morning and remembered the lesson from the fake grip, if you timing is off, it will slip. Am I on the right track here? Do I need to be feeling the weight before the apex so I can apply the last bit of acceleration going into the apex? (I've been trying to get my arm up to about 80% speed before the apex and then trying to hit 100 going into, and through, the apex). Maybe that last little burst without "feeling the weight" is what's messing me up?

 

[JR]

The hand moves from left to right passively and once it starts to you should add to that with muscles. In order to maximize the speed of the disc pivoting between the thumb and the index finger the momentum created by earlier movements of the whole of the body the torch needs to passed on to the next guy in the relay. Because the kinetic energy created thus far will not disappear it will just find the path of least resistance to where to go. The energy tries to move in a straight line unless there is another force vector misaligning the shot. That is the background for why the wrist needs to be stopped abruptly to allow the disc pivot to start maximally fast.

If you hit the arm to a wall so that the disc can pivot freely around the corner of that wall and you had enough grip strength to pivot fully you would achieve maximum efficiency of the transfer of kinetic energy into the disc. It would not be as efficient if the wrist were moving because then you'd add the mass of the hand to be moved around by the created energy. Furthermore; the vectors of movements would not rotate the disc as efficiently. The disc is rotated in two ways. In the arm hitting the wall scenario the disc would rotate passively from the momentum alone. There is another way to add rotational speed to the disc which is pulling back the right shoulder toward the rear right of the tee and rebending the elbow pulling the forearm back. If you allowed the wrist to flap around freely to the right it would not be pulling the outside edge of the disc in a rotational manner. Reducing both rotational and linear back to front speed of the disc.

Ain't it crazy how you add speed to the disc by pulling the arm away from the target? Counter intuitive to say the least.

Regarding timing of the pinch it takes time to get the command from the mind to reach the arm so the arm has moved a lot before the finger pinch starts. There is a reflex for resisting dropping things from your hand that allows you to pinch harder than you could do consciously. It doesn't happen to me all the time quite the opposite so i try to just learn and automate the pinch otherwise. By anticipating when to send the command to pinch. That has to be learned by yourself because people have different neural path speeds and muscle speeds so you need to play with timings. Slips to the left indicate that you need to pinch earlier, harder or both. I can't speak for others because i've had surgery and still have pinched nerves and weaker signals going to muscles but if i wait for the weight of the disc pivot i'm usually late in applying pinch power unless the anti dropping reflex kicks in. When it does there is a chance of throwing farther and getting the disc to squeeze the finger print area partially into a ditch. I had about two millimeters wide and one and a half deep depression for the width of my index finger finger print area in a previous distance record toss for about a minute. The depression was gone completely after two minutes. It stung but in a good way because i knew i maximized by pinch.

 

[horsethief]

So I've been experimenting with a backhand fake grip, just getting a feel for the weight of the disc. Then try to really concentrate on the weight of the disc with a full reach back and power grip, all the way across my chest with a really relaxed arm. There's a a spot somewhere around your right pec, maybe just passed your right pec. It kind of feels like the disc is falling into a little pothole on it's path across your chest and towards the target, where your wrist bends closed from neutral (the momentum and weight of the disc seem to cause it). I've been waiting to hit this little "pothole" (I think this is BW's "apex") to wait until I apply any power at all to my throw. I've been getting a lot of 380 to 400 footer's. I think I would get more of my throw's into the 400's but i'm not really used to compensating for the extra velocity (discs that weren't flippy have some flip now). Does this sound like I'm heading down the right path? I can definitely see improvements in my throws, and feel like it takes much less energy, but I just want to make sure i'm not heading down the road of bad habits...

 

[Blake_T1]

There's a a spot somewhere around your right pec, maybe just passed your right pec. It kind of feels like the disc is falling into a little pothole on it's path across your chest and towards the target, where your wrist bends closed from neutral (the momentum and weight of the disc seem to cause it). I've been waiting to hit this little "pothole" (I think this is BW's "apex") to wait until I apply any power at all to my throw. I've been getting a lot of 380 to 400 footer's.

I refer to this point as the "power pocket."

you are correct in delaying your "active" pull until the disc reaches this point. the earlier parts of the throw basically act as a guide to reach this point and you unload from this point.

in order to build power you can do two things:
1. try to get as far forward into the pocket before unloading. e.g. you will have more power if you are 12" past your body into the pocket before unloading than if you are 2" past your body.
2. make sure you bring the head of the hammer (outer edge of the disc) around during your extension. ideal position is where the head of the hammer is pointing towards the target (your hand will be at around a 4 o'clock orientation).

 

[discraft]

Feeling leverage now by getting more on top of the disc with a lower pull line. I can get deep in the power pocket now before unloading. I was still pulling to early before.

I had to move the disc off the seam before I got the feeling (More of the hand on top of the disc). This created a lower pull line on its own.

Combining the leverage to the hammer pound was the key for me. The hammer pound showed me how it is more of a sling the disc.

Hitting 400' now. Very happy with that since I am a small old guy.(125pounds,43years old). Not adding power to wrist extension yet. I am sure that will add distance when i figure that out.

Thanks BLAKE and everyone that helps on this site.