Ready to make some changes

[TractorFox]

Hello friends,

I've been playing 'seriously' for about a year. I've lurked here for a while and consumed an embarrassing amount of content. I play pretty consistently with people who seem to have strong athletic intuition, which I definitely don't. (Ex, just throw like 'this' and it's fixed).
I worked a couple of lessons with a pro, and while he was great and definitely knew what was working for him, I felt like everything was trying to model after how he threw. For example: I was throwing with a pump before and he said that was just screwing me up and I *have to* work around the disc to make it simpler.

My average shot in my last field session was 238 feet, it was slightly uphill. Realistically I would be ecstatic to hit 300 feet. The way people on here and reddit talk about form, that should be doable and I'm either really strong arming it or I'm doing something fundamentally wrong. Maybe both?

1) So, I'm at this point where I have a hybrid of what felt natural to me and what the pro was trying to convey to me. I'd really like a recommendation on what to really focus on as I've been all over the place with different things to adjust.

2) I'm 5'9 and 160 lbs. Any recommendations for a pro's form to pay attention to?

3) It was super hot today, otherwise I'd go grab a slow motion. Will do in an updated post.

Standstill/One Step
https://youtu.be/Yo5_MsEgtfY


Standstill/One Step from Behind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9F73LIITaPU

Full
https://youtu.be/f34_ACrKdyA

Full Behind
https://youtu.be/wrw2_9995Hc

 

[bryantlikes]

Hello friends,

I've been playing 'seriously' for about a year. I've lurked here for a while and consumed an embarrassing amount of content. I play pretty consistently with people who seem to have strong athletic intuition, which I definitely don't. (Ex, just throw like 'this' and it's fixed).
I worked a couple of lessons with a pro, and while he was great and definitely knew what was working for him, I felt like everything was trying to model after how he threw. For example: I was throwing with a pump before and he said that was just screwing me up and I *have to* work around the disc to make it simpler.

My average shot in my last field session was 238 feet, it was slightly uphill. Realistically I would be ecstatic to hit 300 feet. The way people on here and reddit talk about form, that should be doable and I'm either really strong arming it or I'm doing something fundamentally wrong. Maybe both?

Hello and welcome!

I'm just a newbie myself but I'll give you a few things to look at until the big guns log in.

I'd probably start with a couple of sw22 videos which I'm guessing he would also recommend.

Loading the bow, looks to me like you're kind of starting your swing but only halfway back:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_tQE0N9RHY

Shift from behind, this video really helped me to start to understand the concept of how the front and rear legs rotate during the swing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muz3IBPX58k&t=670s

I'm sure you're get a lot more (and higher quality) suggestions soon and again welcome to the forums!

 

[Icarus]

Two things that pop out to me immediately:

1. You aren't rotating your shoulders/hips away from target enough. To rotate more, your plant foot needs to be rotated neutral/away from target, which enables your front hip/knee to internally rotate, which then allows your upper body to rotate more. Typically recommended drill to get the feel for this is doorframe drill.

2. You are tucking your off arm behind your body when you throw. This is rotating your shoulder girdle backwards when you really need it going the other way at this point in the throw. Not only is your off arm not helping you, in this case it is actually hurting your throw. Fixing this isn't going to help distance at this point, I don't think, but off-arm mechanics are a pain to work on later. Fix it now in the early stages.

 

[TractorFox]

Oh Sweet. Thank you both for your comments. Very nice welcome and good thing to wake up to.

I tried really hard not to look at these before I posted, and looking at them for the first time right now with your feedback in mind.

1) It's pretty clear that as I'm not rotating my hips/shoulders enough I won't be able to shift from behind, let alone shift much at all. Seems to be the logical place to start.
Side: I used to have *much worse* rounding issues and it looks like my "feel" solution hasn't even fixed that.

2) The arm tuck behind is a pretty new thing and I'll work on something else. I was having issues with deciding how much pressure to put into the off arm and thought i should focus on my legs for the time being. My rear hip/shoulder are definitely sore today which doesn't usually happen. RIP back arm tuck.

 

[Brychanus]

My average shot in my last field session was 238 feet, it was slightly uphill. Realistically I would be ecstatic to hit 300 feet. The way people on here and reddit talk about form, that should be doable and I'm either really strong arming it or I'm doing something fundamentally wrong. Maybe both?

2) I'm 5'9 and 160 lbs. Any recommendations for a pro's form to pay attention to?

IMHO most people who haven't spent dedicated time learning fundamentals (however they do it) are doing something fundamentally wrong. People strong arm because they do not have better body mechanics & do not work with gravity to generate effortless force. Easier said than done. It can take some time to get the right sequence of body motions and postures. That's ok, and why dgcr is such a diamond in the rough!

Sizing you up, you could look at Steve Brinster's form. Similar body type and very mechanically efficient and compact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xjn5ve4HO4&ab_channel=seabas22
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taaqD2rPdo4&ab_channel=AceManMark-DiscGolf

Emerson Keith is shorter than you but also has a "small and compact" form.

Shift from behind, this video really helped me to start to understand the concept of how the front and rear legs rotate during the swing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muz3IBPX58k&t=670s

I agree and will always share this Shawn Clement golf vid. Sidewinder22/seabas22 uses his stuff frequently for good reason. This little drill helped me improve the shift in my standstills. It's deceptively simple but is worth its weight in gold. I would spend a little time with this and try to integrate it in your standstills. You want to shift down & forward into the plant "from behind" - which means that your weight will feel like it's dropping back "behind" you into the plant. It's worth spending the effort to get a better standstill and I find it always helps my x-step. The x-step does need its own focus to get the postures/flow/balance/center of gravity in the right spots, but it is simpler to isolate stuff everyone struggles with in standstills for most people.

Right now you are planted slightly open as Icarus is getting at and you aren't getting an ideal shift.



I agree w/ Icarus that the off arm can get waaay too much emphasis too early, but if it's getting in the way early it's also a problem. I acquired weird habits that took months to undo and am still working on it. The key for any "swim" move is that the elbow first collects into the hip/helps drive them to the target, and the second is the "swim through"/counterrotation. I like sidewinder22's "dont spill the beverage" drills:



I also collected some here:


I also like to work on Bradley Williams' swim because it has the fundamentals but is very "quiet", as is his overall form. If you find a more "horizontal" style more natural to develop he's worth studying:







One "protip" about Loading the Bow and getting the shoulder back farther. This little sequence from sidewinder22 is incredibly valuable. It helps you understand how the swing should relate to the rear foot, how your body should be aligned, etc. when loading the bow:
https://youtu.be/FWasFdvnGio?t=364

Whenever I warm up I try to find this "inside swing" alignment (with AND without the wall) which helps get more form tuned for the day.

 

[Brychanus]

Lol - so to simplify what we all said here, I might say work on (in this order):

1. Start with the weight shift in standstills
2. Swing that shoulder farther back and
3. Get your "off arm" into a simple "don't still the beverage" position

And then let's see how it's looking.

 

[TractorFox]

Lol - so to simplify what we all said here, I might say work on (in this order):

1. Start with the weight shift in standstills
2. Swing that shoulder farther back and
3. Get your "off arm" into a simple "don't still the beverage" position

And then let's see how it's looking.

=)<3 Thank you for your advice and time. I'm screenshotting and making this the lock screen on my phone. I'll drill, video, and check in.

It sounds like keeping the form compact is way more important than I was giving credit for.
I know about Brinster from his 'hop.' How do you feel about it vs stepping?

Love your videos btw. They feel like a meta-analysis of disc golf theory.

 

[Brychanus]

=)<3 Thank you for your advice and time. I'm screenshotting and making this the lock screen on my phone. I'll drill, video, and check in.

That's the spirit!

It sounds like keeping the form compact is way more important than I was giving credit for.

I think that's true for most people. Ironically (I'm an academic), I think it's really bad to get too "cerebral" about it as much as I like to. The great thing about people here is they are good at sharing tips about drills that fix VERY specific problems that almost everyone has. Just like any sport, there's a huge difference between how most players move vs. those with "elite" form (I avoid saying "perfect" because I believe that is hard to define and a moving target even in very advanced form). And it's learnable (with lots of practice of course).

I know about Brinster from his 'hop.' How do you feel about it vs stepping?

I'm waiting for SW22 to give his thoughts for me specifically as I'm trying to settle into one "primary" style myself, but the idea about hopping is to generate "free" force from gravity (Force=mass*acceleration). I think it can work well for anyone with clean form, and especially well for stocky players (Garrett Gurthie, Sidewinder22, me). The other advantage is that it's usually easier for people to feel the center of gravity moving ahead of the drive leg and down into the plant form a hop at first. I just started working on a "two-step" swing and was distressed to find that I needed to get the CoG more forward - our bodies/brains really don't like to feel like they're falling sideways or backwards. But they need to for a good swing.

I think hops can work for many people depending on a few variables. Though he's smaller than the big fellas, Brinster gets a lot of "spring" from his legs to max out the force he brings into the swing, so depending on how you move it is worth thinking about. In contrast, I am very top heavy with relatively weak, short legs, and it has always been easier for me to find ways to get full body momentum heading into and out of a hop. SW22 is really, really good at teaching that too, and is helping me find the tweaks that help max out that kind of form.

I think you see much more "striding" on tour now especially as the top players get taller and longer - their long levers allow them to benefit from forces moving in that direction and they have less body mass to propel. Most people end up somewhere in between those extremes with a smaller, horizontal-moving hop even if it's hard to see in real time.


Despite horizontal vs. vertical approaches, watch how similar the actual swing is between GG and Eagle here:
https://imgur.com/gallery/33tOxSp

And SW22's great breakdown here:

Love your videos btw. They feel like a meta-analysis of disc golf theory.

Thanks! Still plenty to work on myself and it is always humbling. As usual, 100% credit to the OG sidewinder22/seabas22 and many folks here.

 

[Icarus]

One more note - we all advocate doing drills. I, however, do not advocate spending a significant portion of your practice time with drills. My rule of thumb is that no more than 20-30% of your time in any month should be spent doing drills. Drills help you get a certain "feel", but you have to immediately try to put the drill into practice to translate that feel. I could be quite wrong, but I get a feeling that people here do nothing but drills for 50+% of their time. They get better at drills but never develop the ability to translate those drills into the throw.

Translation of a skill practice drill into full-speed action is, in and of itself, a skill that must be developed. Those with good proprioception (natural athletes) will find this easy. Many, however, will not.

To train this, film yourself during a set of throws. Immediately review the film and try altering/fixing a particular issue while filming. Compare these two films to get an idea of how that different feel translated into different movement.

 

[Brychanus]

One more note - we all advocate doing drills. I, however, do not advocate spending a significant portion of your practice time with drills. My rule of thumb is that no more than 20-30% of your time in any month should be spent doing drills. Drills help you get a certain "feel", but you have to immediately try to put the drill into practice to translate that feel. I could be quite wrong, but I get a feeling that people here do nothing but drills for 50+% of their time. They get better at drills but never develop the ability to translate those drills into the throw.

Translation of a skill practice drill into full-speed action is, in and of itself, a skill that must be developed. Those with good proprioception (natural athletes) will find this easy. Many, however, will not.

To train this, film yourself during a set of throws. Immediately review the film and try altering/fixing a particular issue while filming. Compare these two films to get an idea of how that different feel translated into different movement.

I'll strongly agree with Icarus (whose form thread I find inspiring) with just a note of caution. Keep an eye on your total volume/power of throwing especially if you're not used to similar athletic moves. I was throwing *way* too much over the past couple months, and had to shut down completely because of overuse stresses. Part of it is because my form started to get more advanced but my body could not take the load, and part was because of problems & inconsistencies in form. So I'm doing relatively more drilling than throwing right now, but I will slowly ramp back up to the ratio he's suggesting with a smarter pace. It is more efficient in the long run.

Bodies adapt to the load over time and the only way that happens is by throwing with rest/recovery cycles. I was not playing for very long before I started serious form work, and then recently the power my body could generate started to spike quickly and I wasn't ready for it (and of course that got me excited and then I pushed too hard). Some people do a "1 on, 2 off" cycle for drive practice, always curious what others recommend.

My best training sessions are just like Icarus suggests - I try to get the drill motion as consistently as possible, then move directly to throwing in the same session. Sometimes you'll get a move to click right away, others can take much more time. Sometimes gains will come in bunches, so keep that in mind when you get frustrated when you're stuck on one thing. I will usually do batches of 5-10 throws in a row, check vid, try to adjust, and then stop when I'm starting to get tired/sloppy and ideally a bit before that. If you do that at a good pace over time you can go far.

 

[TractorFox]

That's the spirit!



I think that's true for most people. Ironically (I'm an academic), I think it's really bad to get too "cerebral" about it as much as I like to. The great thing about people here is they are good at sharing tips about drills that fix VERY specific problems that almost everyone has. Just like any sport, there's a huge difference between how most players move vs. those with "elite" form (I avoid saying "perfect" because I believe that is hard to define and a moving target even in very advanced form). And it's learnable (with lots of practice of course).

Well that's just about the most relatable thing I've ever read. I just submitted my first K. Have to redirect that obsessive energy somewhere else I guess. haha

One more note - we all advocate doing drills. I, however, do not advocate spending a significant portion of your practice time with drills. My rule of thumb is that no more than 20-30% of your time in any month should be spent doing drills. Drills help you get a certain "feel", but you have to immediately try to put the drill into practice to translate that feel. I could be quite wrong, but I get a feeling that people here do nothing but drills for 50+% of their time. They get better at drills but never develop the ability to translate those drills into the throw.

Translation of a skill practice drill into full-speed action is, in and of itself, a skill that must be developed. Those with good proprioception (natural athletes) will find this easy. Many, however, will not.

To train this, film yourself during a set of throws. Immediately review the film and try altering/fixing a particular issue while filming. Compare these two films to get an idea of how that different feel translated into different movement.

Oh man, thanks for the advice Icarus, I would have spent like 80% of the time on drills if you didn't say something.
Filming before and after to compare is a gem of a tip I would have NEVER considered.

Bodies adapt to the load over time and the only way that happens is by throwing with rest/recovery cycles. I was not playing for very long before I started serious form work, and then recently the power my body could generate started to spike quickly and I wasn't ready for it (and of course that got me excited and then I pushed too hard). Some people do a "1 on, 2 off" cycle for drive practice, always curious what others recommend.

I started watching your talk with Overthrow and you mentioned this, I'm sorry to hear about it, but at least you know not to push it. This absolutely makes sense and provides some basis for the "things get easier over time" cliche.

On that note, I can see myself being frustrated with relearning the movements correctly as I've spent so much time grinding on it wrong. However, I suspect it'll be much easier to learn than when I first picked up the disc. It's pretty exciting to see everyone's progress. I just need to keep myself motivated.

 

[Brychanus]

Well that's just about the most relatable thing I've ever read. I just submitted my first K. Have to redirect that obsessive energy somewhere else I guess. haha

Oh man, thanks for the advice Icarus, I would have spent like 80% of the time on drills if you didn't say something.
Filming before and after to compare is a gem of a tip I would have NEVER considered.

I started watching your talk with Overthrow and you mentioned this, I'm sorry to hear about it, but at least you know not to push it. This absolutely makes sense and provides some basis for the "things get easier over time" cliche.

On that note, I can see myself being frustrated with relearning the movements correctly as I've spent so much time grinding on it wrong. However, I suspect it'll be much easier to learn than when I first picked up the disc. It's pretty exciting to see everyone's progress. I just need to keep myself motivated.

Hey, congrats on the K sub! Always celebrate the submissions. What field?

Thanks for the sympathy. Better every day, just need to be much more patient from now on. You can probably tell we share that obsessive energy, so I channel it here when I have to scratch the itch.

I really like the "beginner's mind". Sometimes your body was doing something well, but at least as often it gets in the way. Treat it like an altogether brand new skill. At this point learning about form is just one of my primary hobbies. It becomes more fun than frustrating the more I just relax and learn, so I get "two in one" from disc golf!

 

[Icarus]

Some people do a "1 on, 2 off" cycle for drive practice, always curious what others recommend.

Required rest times will vary depending on the intensity of your practice. Remember that muscle groups tend to take 24-48 hours to recover fully, but tendons usually take a day longer (48-72 hours) to recover after high intensity usage; this was quite important to me when I was rock climbing regularly.

Disc golf does involve a good amount tendon intensity due to the explosive nature of the throw, especially around the shoulder and elbow area. 1 on, 2 off is a working pace for an athlete in high intensity training, but I would start a beginner with 3 days minimum between full driving practice days and work up from there. For reference, a "full" driving practice for me includes 10-20 warmup throws, followed by 50-80 full power drives in a 1-1.5 hour time frame. For a beginner, I would expect him to start tiring out closer to 30-40 drives.

 

[sidewinder22]

In addition to the stuff mentioned. Note how you are pulling the leading edge of the disc instead of the opposite side of the disc from your chest. Hug the disc, don't hug yourself.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133319

 

[TractorFox]

Oh Sweet, thank you for looking SW22
It's insane that I feel like I'm pulling the disc on the edge opposite my chest and it's the leading one. Looking at you/HUB and Emerson Keith (https://youtu.be/adznE_7UUEA?t=199), I'm having a hard time telling if my issue is the arm issue (like you said hug it, but that feels like bicep activation), wrist issue (bend in?, Emerson appears to keep his wrist cocked from the backswing to center), or just creating more body space. Or all? Your explanation of the power pocket and HUB's arm in the first makes me think I need to push my elbow out further (toward the basket). Any thoughts?


On another note... I went and threw a bunch of field shots yesterday. Timing was way off, but my takeaway was that having the closed shoulder/hip and pushing into my leg was gliding my hips through. I thought this was happening before but now I realize they were jamming and I was trying to force it. I'm pretty sore, and going to rest per advice but that's a pretty exciting development.

 

[Brychanus]

Oh Sweet, thank you for looking SW22
It's insane that I feel like I'm pulling the disc on the edge opposite my chest and it's the leading one. Looking at you/HUB and Emerson Keith (https://youtu.be/adznE_7UUEA?t=199), I'm having a hard time telling if my issue is the arm issue (like you said hug it, but that feels like bicep activation), wrist issue (bend in?, Emerson appears to keep his wrist cocked from the backswing to center), or just creating more body space. Or all? Your explanation of the power pocket and HUB's arm in the first makes me think I need to push my elbow out further (toward the basket). Any thoughts?


On another note... I went and threw a bunch of field shots yesterday. Timing was way off, but my takeaway was that having the closed shoulder/hip and pushing into my leg was gliding my hips through. I thought this was happening before but now I realize they were jamming and I was trying to force it. I'm pretty sore, and going to rest per advice but that's a pretty exciting development.

Think of swinging the disc wide from your shoulder. Your arm is just the string pulled taut. Your posture should develop such that the disc will naturally pass through the "Pocket". The Pocket is an effect of these things, not strictly a goal per se.


One of the funky things about the brace is that it should form a very stiff and strong structure, but you need to be in a posture to enter the plant that frees those hips up to swivel easily. The brace shouldn't feel like a jam, but a post you can swivel from in the hip. You definitely will find new muscles getting recruited as the mechanics change!

 

[TractorFox]

Update time.

last week I was practicing the stride into a closed foot and I strained my calf/knee. There was pain, but nothing serious (medical professional cleared), but it's probably I'm going to have to limit myself to a neutral foot.

Anyway, my checklist from Brychanus/SW22 includes

1. weight shift in standstills
2. Swing that shoulder farther back
3. "off arm"
4. Hug the disc

I practiced (gently) the last few days and tried the standstill fieldwork today. Today felt pretty frustrating, especially after reviewing the video.

Side


Behind



Self assessments
1) I might have to try to find a different way to have the weight shift explained. I saw someone say in a technique thread that (something along the lines of) "it's so simple...you'll think there's something wrong with you once you figure it out."
a) I've noticed that when I'm "reaching my foot out" and it's opening more. This is *incredibly* annoying definitely something I'll have to work on. =)

2) I think my shoulder is coming further back.

3) While I haven't' found an effortless way to do the off-arm move yet, It's at least not behind my hip.

4) Hugging the disc is a problem I have been trying to fix since November. Older videos of myself show me really dropping the elbow and getting sawed off, and it definitely looks "better."

5) Very wobbly.

Any thoughts?

Bonus
Brychanus mentioned that Emerson Keith has compact, simple form. https://youtu.be/adznE_7UUEA?t=491
Stylistically he seems to drift/fall into the shot from an already coiled upper body. The seems very interesting, would it be counterproductive to try it out?

 

[bryantlikes]

Update time.

Quick note since I recently figured this out myself. To use the Youtube feature you paste the video id only in between the [ ] [/ ].

 

[Brychanus]

Update time.

last week I was practicing the stride into a closed foot and I strained my calf/knee. There was pain, but nothing serious (medical professional cleared), but it's probably I'm going to have to limit myself to a neutral foot.

Anyway, my checklist from Brychanus/SW22 includes

1. weight shift in standstills
2. Swing that shoulder farther back
3. "off arm"
4. Hug the disc

I practiced (gently) the last few days and tried the standstill fieldwork today. Today felt pretty frustrating, especially after reviewing the video.


Self assessments
1) I might have to try to find a different way to have the weight shift explained. I saw someone say in a technique thread that (something along the lines of) "it's so simple...you'll think there's something wrong with you once you figure it out."
a) I've noticed that when I'm "reaching my foot out" and it's opening more. This is *incredibly* annoying definitely something I'll have to work on. =)

2) I think my shoulder is coming further back.

3) While I haven't' found an effortless way to do the off-arm move yet, It's at least not behind my hip.

4) Hugging the disc is a problem I have been trying to fix since November. Older videos of myself show me really dropping the elbow and getting sawed off, and it definitely looks "better."

5) Very wobbly.

Any thoughts?

Bonus
Brychanus mentioned that Emerson Keith has compact, simple form. https://youtu.be/adznE_7UUEA?t=491
Stylistically he seems to drift/fall into the shot from an already coiled upper body. The seems very interesting, would it be counterproductive to try it out?

to your pts:

1. Anecdotally, most of my knee/calf injuries have been due to a botched weight shift of one form or another. In my case I've found that it can feel like learning it more than once as your balance changes/strides lengthen etc. I think it's better to post yourself doing the Clement drill and seabas22 Hershyzer to see if there's something basic happening out of the gate (there almost always is and the cause and explanation is sometimes more obvious in the drills).

2. I think so!

3. Off arm into the hip/rear shoulder protracted/don't spill the beverage is probably good enough for now to keep it simple while cleaning up the bigger items. I went through several until I found one that seemed to click and it was worth all the time fixing other pieces first.

4 and 5 are probably related. You need more tilt in the throwing shoulder (toward the ground) into the backswing. This helps get the body out of the way, achieve natural spine curve/lag, and will help make it less likely to saw off the swing/pull on an OAT-y arc.

 

[Brychanus]

Bonus
Brychanus mentioned that Emerson Keith has compact, simple form. https://youtu.be/adznE_7UUEA?t=491
Stylistically he seems to drift/fall into the shot from an already coiled upper body. The seems very interesting, would it be counterproductive to try it out?

Yep notice that the way Emerson shifts is consistent with how SW22 teaches Hershyzer, but he's coming in from very high onto that compact leg position - lots of vertical force. He also has that very pronounced curve/strong downswing tilt. He's got pretty long arms for his height. I like to think of his form like an "English longbow" style- "long" in the sense of his vertical force and limbs, and very "bow"-y as he explodes through the swing with excellent body curvature. The guy is a great case study for maximizing shorter stature and I'm learning a lot from his weight shift.

Might be helpful to try a more pronounced form like that to get the "fall" part of the weight shift more encoded. It usually takes work to get the weight shifting forward AND down because our brains don't like it.

I do think I'd still recommend triaging the drills first since you've had an injury.