Releasing The Disc Flat

[Mike C]

I want to get a discussion going on flat releases.

I remember years ago reading a bunch of posts on here about how you should always look for the hyzer route, how pros always throw hyzers because of consistency etc. I'm not here to disagree with that, I've taken that advice, run with it, and it's helped me with my consistency. Especially since I leanred to FH and can now toss a FH hyzer flick instead of a touch anny BH.

-BUT-

One thing I've noticed is there are a lot of shots that I'm throwing hyzer that I don't need to throw hyzer. I can get the disc out further with a flat release and if my form is clean it just goes straight.

One thing that's been niggling me though is something I've heard repeated a few times about flat releases. I've heard many people whom I consider knowledgeable say that when you throw flat it's almost impossible to keep the nose down. I don't understand this. If someone could elaborate on this I think it would help me out, because when I try to throw flat I'm not noticing difficulty keeping the nose down. The only thing that's ever given me trouble with a flat release is years ago I tended to throw a disc with a bit of anny if I tried to throw flat, but I feel like I've ironed that out for the most part.

Is it going to hurt me in the long run if I start trying to throw more flat release shots? I feel like it should increase accuracy since it takes less power and less guesswork if you know the disc you're throwing can go dead straight. You don't have to account for the fade, because there is none. It also requires less effort to achieve equal distance.

 

[scoopa]

As long as you have wrist down, weight forward, and don't try to throw too high then you should be fine.

 

[sidewinder22]

Define flat release.

 

[Mike C]

Define flat release.

No hyzer or anhyzer but aiming however high or low the line calls for.

 

[sidewinder22]

What discs are you releasing flat, high and nose down?

 

[New013]

I have trouble with flat releases, it's one part of my game i'm working on right now. The two problems I encounter are what you touched on, nose up and slight anny release when trying to throw flat.

I think it came from learning the game with my Mako. To get long straight lines you need some hyzer on it so it kind of got engrained. When I picked up my first Ions I really started noticing it. I had to adjust for more touch shots and think to myself before I threw to get a flat release.

When driving I mostly encounter the anny release when trying to keep a more stable driver flat. For some reason I drive flat with my TLs fine and it's easy for me to keep my nose down but when I pick up something a bit more stable I have to get a few throws in before I'm throwing actually flat. The best way I've found to counteract that so far is to close my eyes and feel how my wrist angle feels when going through a flat motion really slowly. Then I can kind of tab that motion in to my brain and go from there.

If anyone else has any other suggestions I really welcome them.

 

[Blake_T1]

wrist extension is what gets the nose down on flat throws. you can cheat the angles a bit with hyzers and anhyzers so you don't need as much wrist extension to get the nose down on those throws.

a flat release is the least consistent type of shot to try and throw. with many discs they fly one way when flat, and completely different if they are thrown with 1 degree of hyzer or anhyzer.

so... basically you have to throw perfectly or you screw it up.

i expect my throw to have some variance so i have a ~5 degree band is what i'm gunning for (missing 2.5 degrees more or less than my target angle).

if you try to throw a given disc with 20 degrees of hyzer and you end up throwing with 22 degrees of hyzer... the end result might be like 10' shorter and 7' left. if you try to throw with 20 degrees hyzer and you end up throwing 18 degrees... the end result might be like 5' shorter and 5' right. if you try to throw the same disc flat flat and you throw 2 degrees hyzer you may end up 30' short and 20' left. if you try to throw flat and throw 2 degrees anhyzer you may end up 20' long and 30' to the right.

basically, it's just harder to do. you're better off trying to throw with some angle at all times. anhyzer if you like overstable. hyzer if you like understable.

 

[JR]

The short version: Nose down is stupendously easy hyzered or anhyzered. The steeper the angle the easier it gets to have the nose down at least in some earlier part of the flight than with flat shots. Easiest ways to get annied or hyzered nose down flight or even extreme nose down are rolling the wrist or the shoulder and using the Bonopane grip. Flat shots need many more tricks executed properly with proper timing and there is a minimum muscle power requirement to pull it off. And still may be inaccessible for most for high throws with the front being lower than the rear of the disc.

Flat shots missed penalize easily but getting it right also provides benefits. If you have a point and shoot disc for a laser you just smash it to the middle of the fairway or if you're close enough to the side of the basket that the fade brings the disc to the pin. Throwing s-curves in tunnels creates more error sources for thinking and disc selection plus missing out in power generation will wreak havoc with s-curves. Straight tunnels need to be fairly short if you wanna throw over the obstacles annied or hyzered and there's the issue of winds. The short version: One needs to master flat shots, annies, hyzers, s-curves and preferably rollers and overhands at least to be able to manage all courses in all conditions.

Flat shot front and rear of the disc at the same height for 17' apexes to 400' is not a problem once proper mechanics sans perfect wrist extension. And a full disc pivot. Achieving the same with added apex heights is a more complicated matter. Mike has more power than that so he can throw the disc parallel to the ground to a higher apex point at full power. Throwing higher than his power allows and with the front of the disc lower than the rear of the disc needs a lot of things done right that aren't always necessary for hyzers. So a flat shot is the most demanding shot.

If you hyper spin with the wrist never bending left of neutral and snap to the right of neutral you don't need to account for the wrist bones raising the hand during the wrist snap. Like it would happen snapping from hand to the left of wrist neutral to wrist straight. Using the upper muscles of the forearm can be beneficial for forcing the hand to stay down. The more you lean forward the easier it is to throw nose down. The less you raise the arm from reach back to the rip the easier it is to keep the nose down. The harder you pinch and the more the disc pivots the easier it is to get the nose down.

Sometimes tight s-curves can fit within obstacles and then that is a good cheat for getting the nose down more easily than with a flat shot.

Hyzer flips are good for tight tunnels in calm conditions. In windier conditions you need beefier discs that can be released flat and fly without turning and with low fade while handling a fairly good amount of wind. How come i love the newest Beasts? More HSS than anything as little fading and longer than anything less fading.

 

[Crimson75]

I recall Climo once saying that you should learn to throw flat and straight at first because everything works off of that...I have been incorporating this into my game and the results have not been as inconsistent as what is being said? Technically, isnt the flight characteristic of a given based on its being thrown flat and straight?

 

[turso]

Going for the surer hyzer lines is so boring, I always go for a straight shot if it's not completely retarded.

 

[Hoey1]

The short version...

:lol:



jkjr




great thread, this exact thought/thread has been going around the back of my head for a little while too...



And thanks Blake, I just became a better player by reading this...

if you try to throw a given disc with 20 degrees of hyzer and you end up throwing with 22 degrees of hyzer... the end result might be like 10' shorter and 7' left. if you try to throw with 20 degrees hyzer and you end up throwing 18 degrees... the end result might be like 5' shorter and 5' right. if you try to throw the same disc flat flat and you throw 2 degrees hyzer you may end up 30' short and 20' left. if you try to throw flat and throw 2 degrees anhyzer you may end up 20' long and 30' to the right.

basically, it's just harder to do. you're better off trying to throw with some angle at all times. anhyzer if you like overstable. hyzer if you like understable.

I do prefer the hyzer.

 

[sidewinder22]

Are either of these flat release and nose down?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwJTsLtl1pk#t=5m56s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwJTsLtl1pk#t=4m55s

 

[Widdershins]

There is a distinction I would offer: THROWING Flat versus RELEASING the disc flat.

My goal is to be able to make any disc in my bag fly flat and straight during the central portion of its flight. So I want the disc to fly flat even if I need to release it somewhat off of flat to get it to do so.

The better I am able to make a disc fly flat the better control I have over the disc.

 

[jubuttib]

Also factor in that just like fade increases the nose angle of the disc, turn decreases it. So throwing a hyzerflip, if you get say 1 degrees of nose down with 20 degrees of hyzer by the time the disc gets to flat it could very well have 2-5 degrees of nose down.

 

[sidewinder22]

There is a distinction I would offer: THROWING Flat versus RELEASING the disc flat.

My goal is to be able to make any disc in my bag fly flat and straight during the central portion of its flight. So I want the disc to fly flat even if I need to release it somewhat off of flat to get it to do so.

The better I am able to make a disc fly flat the better control I have over the disc.

That is a distinction I would make as well. I think there is technically always some degree of hyzer or anhyzer on a release. My favorite shots are throwing fairly neutral discs with slight angle that fly flat straight at the target.

 

[Blake_T1]

Mark pretty much summed up what I said.

the hyzer angles and outcomes i referenced were meant to be on a flattened hyzer (straightish throw) vs. releasing a disc on a flat angle.

committing to a hyzer line and angle on a throw is the most predictable shot and the easiest to consistently execute but it is boring and not applicable to all throws, but when it's available, it gives the best consistent outcome.

I mostly use hyzers for range control. when you stationary throw a putter 280', it's easier to spike a predator 200' than try to finesse a putter.

 

[Widdershins]

Mark pretty much summed up what I said.

Wow. I had no idea if I was agreeing with Blake or not. :lol:

I read the posts back and even with Blake's summary of my unintended summary of his position I'm still disoriented. It is nice to be on the side of science, though.

Back when I sucked I couldn't throw a disc flat and straight. Now that I suck somewhat less I can sometimes make a disc fly flat and straight. All things considered sucking less is a very good thing.

Throwing flat creates a bigger margin of error? I would have guessed the opposite. The closer a shot comes to pure (flat & straight) the better the shot is. A shot thrown better does not always work out better than a weaker shot (the luck factor) but it is still the better shot, whether it is rewarded or not.

Hyzers are the easiest shots to throw, requiring the least skill. Flat shots take much more skill but once that skill is attained they are more precise. The different lines represent gradations of skill. Hyzers are like crawling in the dirt (even a beginner can do it). Straight shots are running smoothly. Anhyzers are ballet. Putting is performing ballet blindfolded on an obstacle course suspended over a shark tank.

 

[Blake_T1]

Haha, Mark.

Yeah, we are on the same page on this one.

flat flight vs. flat release are two different things. i am fine with a flat flight, but i think flat release is a lower percentage than other releases. it's like needing a 20 when playing darts and aiming for the skinny part rather than the fat part.

it is something i think people should be able to do with some competence, but i'm the type that builds strategies around long-run percentages.

 

[Lithicon]

Yeah, after reading so much of what Blake has written about percentages and release angles. I eventually came to favor slightly neutral to understable disc and throw more hyzer angles. Flying flat is what use a lot. I wouldn't say it's boring, one of the prettiest flights I think.

 

[cpjackson]

In my limited experience, my approach is something like bowling (or insanity). I try to get to an open field and throw everything with the same angle and power so I can observe the differences in flight. An Avenger or a Force is going to behave vastly differently than a Sidewinder or an SS Avenger. Understanding the difference helps my decision making on the course.

Now for actually accomplishing the shot I come up with in my head? Still working on that. Once in a while it happens, but once per round at most.

Mark and Blake have already nailed this topic down, but I thought I'd add my 2 cents anyhow.