right pec drill, questions on standstill and one step throws

[BarrabusTheDiscGolfGnome]

That was my longest post to date....look out JR, here I come.

 

[garublador1]

It sounds to me like you have issues as to where your weight should be at the hit and when the transfer should happen with respect to your pull through. I'd guess that you're pulling too early (disc flying off to the right) and your weight isn't far enough forward (nose up) at the hit. I wouldn't worry about trying for flat shots yet. It might be just me, but it's easier to feel the right weight transfer on a bit of a hyzer line. Once you get that feel it's easier to apply it to other disc angles.

 

[JR]

That was my longest post to date....look out JR, here I come.

Some things are so complex that posts get long or important stuff gets cut out and at that point what's the point of posting at all if you can't get help for your troubles? Not knowing the disease makes curing a bit more difficult Now that you've written a mile on my keyboard you'll likely understand my post lengths a little better :-D

 

[BarrabusTheDiscGolfGnome]

Something odd happened during field practice yesterday. I was throwing a stack of DX discs without looking to see which disc I was throwing and I BOMBED (for me anyway) one of my last tosses over the fence of the baseball field I use to practice. After I went and picked up that rounds shots, I realized it was a 175 Cheetah! The fact that it was a cheetah doesn't surprise me. I throw lots of speed 6 drivers and I like them, what did surprise me was the fact that it was max weight. It is not very beat either, it has mebbe one or two small nicks and that's it. I have always steered clear of max weight discs as I felt I didn't have the arm for them (I am a small guy @ 6'0, 140lbs).

I know that Blake and many others recommend lighter weights for beginning players, but as my form improves I am wondering if I will be able to throw heavier discs. This would be a plus for me considering they are easier to find at local retailers and they penetrate better (according to everything I have read). Anyone else start out light and move up in weight?

I am thinking that weight of disc will be dependent on mold and plastic. For example, if I were to throw a gazelle I think max weight would be okay, but If I were to reach for anything faster or in a premium plastic I would still try and keep the weight down a little (probably in the mid 160's).

Lemme know what you guys think

 

[garublador1]

I find it's easier to "feel the hit" with heavier discs, which may be what happened there, but unless you're a real high power player, you'll get more distance with little to no loss in predictability with lighter discs (how light depends on how far you're throwing.)

 

[BarrabusTheDiscGolfGnome]

I stick mostly with 166-172 for drivers and 169-175 for mid ranges, all my wizards are 170-171 (and I couldn't love them more!!!). I have been throwing this range for some time so I am fairly used to it but other than the wizards I am open to suggestion as to which weights I should focus on.

edit: my usuable golf distance is around 280 feet. some shots go longer but I cannot do this consistently yet.

 

[keltik1]

mj i always thought we are about the same height.....but i didn't realize i weigh 100 lbs more than you......deezamn.....i need to lose some weight.....anyway keep it up......

 

[black udder]

I stick mostly with 166-172 for drivers and 169-175 for mid ranges, all my wizards are 170-171 (and I couldn't love them more!!!). I have been throwing this range for some time so I am fairly used to it but other than the wizards I am open to suggestion as to which weights I should focus on.

edit: my usuable golf distance is around 280 feet. some shots go longer but I cannot do this consistently yet.

I'd recommend sticking with drivers in the 16x range. Make 170g your max driver until you're getting stuff over 350', then it's up to you if you want to go there or beyond. Midranges you should be seeking accuracy, so 170+ isn't bad at all. Now, a Roc I'd definitely recommend a 16xg range since they're such pigs when new. If you like the 16xg range for midrange, that's okay as long as they fly as intended. You'll get a little more glide and distance from them. Same for putters. I tend to go 170+ on all midrange & putters (except rocs).

The way I feel it works is that as you increase your distance, then the weight of the disc plays it's part by letting the disc fly as designed. So, for a 300' thrower, 150g-168g drivers should fly as intended, however, as you get into the over 400' club (that's throwing 400' on command and with some degree of control) then you may want to move into the upper 16x to 17x range to keep those same discs flying as designed.

So with you throwing <300', I'd recommend light discs for sure. I guarantee you that a 150g star teebird will be an overstable disc for you. Outside of throwing in storm winds, it'll be predictable. Just moving up to something like a 162g star teebird you will notice a huge amount of added overstability.

I agree with garub that some folks have an easier time feeling the hit with a heavier disc though.

If you're throwing under 300', I'd imagine you still haven't gotten the snap right yet. Once you do, stuff just sails.

Remember instead of focusing on a hard/fast pull, focus on a powerful rotation from the ground up. Just let your arm go along for the ride until it reaches the center of your chest and your shoulders rotate. Then just pull it into chest and extend your elbow as fast as you can along with your shoulder rotation. It's rotational force that will jettison the disc, not a pull. And the more relaxed your arm is during this rotation, the more snap you can get - just like a whip, if it's stiff, it won't snap, so you have to relax.

 

[BarrabusTheDiscGolfGnome]

I had the worst round of my life this morning. I shot in the upper 80's on a course I avg. a 64 on. It was a black f@#$ing day ladies and gentlemen. I couldn't do a damn thing right, every time I stepped up to the tee I would lose my footing or pull up or something else stupid and just screw it all up royal. I vow not to set foot on a disc golf course again until I can actually throw a disc...I am embarrassed. Also, I have been working so hard in the field and during putting practice that I have worn out my arm and I think I pulled a muscle today. Even if I get the inclination to make a fool of myself again I have to let muscle/tendon/whatever heal for a few days before I can. Ok, the rant is over. Sorry to everyone out there reading this but I had to scream somewhere and this seemed to be the only place somebody might understand how I feel.

I have a 150 champ teebird and two dx teebirds 168 (getting beat) and 165 (newish) that I pretty much throw all the time. I was thinking of bumping the weight to the 170-172 range, but since it seems I would do better with lighter weight I will stick with what I have. Much more field work and fewer actual rounds seems the way it has got to be for the time being . I just have to keep thinking about how sweet it will be to throw hole one @ middle creek (~280ft) with a roc.

 

[Star Shark]

I seem to throw crap rounds right before a good one, like on tuesday. Par 54 course, longest hole at 360' and I shot 8 over. Next round I came back and shot 4 under.

 

[black udder]

I'd agree on the "more field work before hitting the course" again statement. You're working on so much that actually trying to play gets to be almost impossible. IF you decide you want to play on the course, just go throw as relaxed as you can - the way you used to. Leave the improvements for the field until you can perform them at will.

Also, remember, just because a hole is 280', doesn't mean it's a roc shot Maybe it's an easy driver shot. Just because you can throw it, doesn't mean you should. The sign of your improvement won't be parking it with a roc, it'll be parking it consistently

I'd recommend a stack of putters (10 or so) and hit the field 2-3 times a week if you can, for about 30-60 minutes. Just practice getting the feel of a throw with snap from a standing position. Once you feel you're getting the snap, then move to some body rotation, then some hip rotation. Start slow and build after you have the previous concept. I'd imagine that it'll take a week or two per concept and then a few more to put it all together, then a few more to get some real consistency.

When you go our to the course, for the next year or so, you have to put into your mind that you are improving and you will not play like you used to. Think caterpillar and butterfly here - it takes awhile to change everything you're doing, ingrain it into your muscles and then grow the mental confidence to make it pay off. Relax and have fun on the course while the process happens. You should see it develop in stages.

 

[gretagun]

I can definitely understand your frustration, as I have been there in the past. I spent a lot of time in the field this summer, and at times felt it was totally worthless as my scores never improved on the course. I have not set foot on a course since November, but I have been trying to get out to the field as much as possible over the winter months, and I'm finally seeing some major improvement. I threw Orcs, Teebirds and Beasts all summer long, but I have dropped all of those and worked extensively with my Wizards, Rocs, Cobra, Gazelles and Leopards, all DX except for the Cobra/Wizards. With the aide of the MB video and finally understanding the concept of snap, I'm finding that learning to do this is much easier with my Gazelles and Leopards, as far as drivers are concerned. I really grasped the concept with my putters.
I'm not even worried about my Tee-birds right now, and I'm getting my gazelles and leopards further with one step right-pec drills than I could with my teebirds. My advice would be to consider dropping your teebirds for a little bit and use something more understable or slower to work with. It has worked for me, and I will be stepping back up to my teebirds very soon.
As cheesy as it this sounds don't give up. Some people understand these concepts easier or quicker than others, but eventually it will click.

 

[black udder]

I'll add to the feel good post. Last year I was lucky to throw 330'. Hardly ever happened. Last summer I had somebody help me out and *finally* understood snap and how to actually throw (the mechanics and rotational force and momentum). I worked hard all summer and practiced in a field regularly.

Today at our Ice Bowl (a mild 45 degrees) I actually parked a slight downhill 372' hole. I could never have done that prior to last year, even on my furthest and luckiest throw. I also chucked a throw about 372' into a mild headwind as well as a bunch in the 350'-360' range.

It takes time, but it will pay off. The more you read, practice and talk to and watch the better players, the more it will sink it. Once it clicks, then it's just a matter of practice. Keep it up!

 

[BarrabusTheDiscGolfGnome]

I think I am getting slip instead of snap. When the disc comes out I feel it hit the middle and index finger quite a bit, sometimes just the index but mostly those two fingers leave at almost the same time. I throw using the power grip so the middle finger is not supposed to be the rip point.

All my shots seem to fly hyzer (unless I roll my wrist) when I throw from a standstill. Someone said that I shouldn't be concerned with throwing flat shots from a standstill, is this correct?

Thank you for your words of encouragement, I appreciate them greatly.

 

[black udder]

For me, I've gone to throwing almost all hyzer of varying degrees. Blake has said that it's so hard to throw flat (the degree of flat vs hyzer vs anhyzer is so close, you could end up with any). Thus, I throw everything with varying degrees of hyzer.

When I throw from a standstill, I typically throw understable drivers. A worn teebird, a stratus, a comet, XL, etc. I'm not really throwing over 300' standing still. If I'm going over 300', then I'm still throwing discs that hyzer flip, just faster or heavier discs. Like my 162g-168g wraiths, a 167g Rogue, etc.

If you always throw hyzer, you know it's going to be flat or hyzer. If you throw flat, you could end up with the complete opposite (anhyzer) of what you intend, just by a few degrees. A comet, for example, will just keep going that way if you throw it with anhyzer.

I'd find some understable discs that you can flip up to flat and practice with them. Once you can do that, then you have a big advantage on dead straight tunnel shots (over somebody trying to throw flat).

 

[banzai7]

Sorry in advance for the thread jack, but BU's recent comments made my question relevant. Plus, we already have too many different "right pec drill" threads going.

Okay: question for all you experts. I've been working on the right pec drill for a couple weeks now. From standstill w/ no body rotation, I can get easily get putters and rocs around 150'.

Ever since I started this drill, I'm having problems with too much hyzer. Virtually all my shots now are now hyzers (not intentionally!). On a full x-step this is even more pronounced: ~325' spike hyzers w/ an OLS.

I'm getting great snap and spin on the discs, but they immediately rocket hyzer. I think it's bound to be either OAT from wrist roll under, or OAT from following through up and away rather than on plane. But it might also be that I'm now getting more wrist extension than ever before, and that might be imparting last-minute hyzer?

Blake has said before that immediate change to hyzer can be an indication of nose up. But the weird thing is the more weight forward I am, the worse the hyzer angle. I'm throwing close to the chest (disc is touching right pec), too.

Help!

 

[black udder]

what weight discs are you throwing? And what kinds?

I found that as my form improved, the less overstable discs I needed to throw. I'm getting putters out to 240' or so with no x-step, 280'ish with an x-step. When I'm throwing from a standing position, I typically stand upright and throw them flat. When I'm driving, I typically throw a worn 150g star teebird so it flips up to flat. Most of my throws now involve discs in the 16xg range and I hyzer flip them up to flat.

I've got a 170g SOLS, but I use it for distance shots, throw it with hyzer and it comes up flat. With the right wind, it'll turn over and if I throw it with less hyzer, I can turn it over.

 

[banzai7]

For the right pec drill I'm throwing beat up BB aviars (172g, 175g) and flippy or straight rocs (175g, 178g, 166g, 170g). For full throws, I'm throwing TBs (2x 169g, 171g), Valks (150g, 168g, 169g, 171g, 173g), and 168g MOLS and 169g SOLS.

But I'm *sure* it's not a disc selection issue. I love hyzer flipping stuff, but only my roller discs are flipping over now. Plus, even a new max weight KC roc shouldn't dive hyzer 25' from me when thrown flat. It's a form issue. Discs will sometimes come out 25-45 degrees hyzer when I'm trying to throw flat.

 

[black udder]

for the right pec drill, yeah, most stuff would hyzer for me too. If you stand upright and throw flat, then you'll get what you want, but if you get your weight forward, you just don't get enough on discs to bring them up to flat.

With that drill, all you're looking to do is get the feeling of late acceleration and what snap feels like. Once you've done that, move onto throwing (either standstill or with an x-step).

Once you're throwing, I would hope that you don't have the same problems.

For what it's worth, I think the disc weights you have are reasonable. They should perform well for you.

 

[JR]

Banzai as you move more weight forward you are getting more hyzer. Could that come from you leaning to the left more as you're leaning forward? Is your hip tilting to the left or are you planting your right leg a lot to the right of the line you're running toward?