cojsmith08
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2007
- Messages
- 1,116
What makes these two discs so popluar?
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Roc/Wizard popularity?
- Thread starter cojsmith08
- Start date
Seanzerelli1
Par Member
Stabilizing bead on the wizard I suppose. Roc can beat into 3 different disc, new, beat, thrashed.
garublador1
* Ace Member *
They're widely regarded as the best putter and best midrange on the market.
discdawg1
Birdie Member
Honestly, blind luck. Eventually a manufacturer will make a great disc for players needs. It just so happens that Innova has a great midrange and Gateway found the right formula for a putter. Also, it might have something to do with frequency. Mids and putters often are used on every hole, and are prone to followers.
JMO.
I use both and they work great for me.
JMO.
I use both and they work great for me.
Blake_T1
* Ace Member *
the only things i consider to be a matter of preference with rocs and wizards is preference for "best."
4 things you want from a midrange and driving putter:
1. high speed stable: it shoudln't turn.
2. predictable low speed fade without being overbearing: it should fade every time, but by a reasonable amount.
3. range control. it shouldn't be difficult to manipulate the disc's range.
4. carry. given the speed range of "midrange" discs how far do the discs carry. note: i separate this from glide because floaty understable discs often have the best glide but terrible "carry."
so, taking various discs and rating them by each category, the frontrunners become simple:
Roc: 1. A 2. A- 3. A 4. B+. GPA = 3.75
Buzzz: 1. B+ 2. A 3. B- 4. A. GPA = 3.5
Wasp: 1. A 2. B 3. B+ 4. A-. GPA = 3.5
Kite: 1. D- 2. D- 3. B- 4. B+ GPA = 1.83
doesn't take long to find the wizard is way up there in terms of putt & approach.
4 things you want from a midrange and driving putter:
1. high speed stable: it shoudln't turn.
2. predictable low speed fade without being overbearing: it should fade every time, but by a reasonable amount.
3. range control. it shouldn't be difficult to manipulate the disc's range.
4. carry. given the speed range of "midrange" discs how far do the discs carry. note: i separate this from glide because floaty understable discs often have the best glide but terrible "carry."
so, taking various discs and rating them by each category, the frontrunners become simple:
Roc: 1. A 2. A- 3. A 4. B+. GPA = 3.75
Buzzz: 1. B+ 2. A 3. B- 4. A. GPA = 3.5
Wasp: 1. A 2. B 3. B+ 4. A-. GPA = 3.5
Kite: 1. D- 2. D- 3. B- 4. B+ GPA = 1.83
doesn't take long to find the wizard is way up there in terms of putt & approach.
rusch_bag
* Ace Member *
Throw predator in there as well. They are just the best at what they do.
IowaDiscGolf
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2007
- Messages
- 577
Wizard - versatility
Roc - versatility PLUS the most forgiving disc I've ever seen
Roc - versatility PLUS the most forgiving disc I've ever seen
rusch_bag said:
Roc and Predator are by far the best option at there respective slots.
I also vote Wizard but there are other putters that are almost as good Aviar etc.
Roc and Pred have no competition.
black udder
* Ace Member *
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2006
- Messages
- 4,859
I believe both discs do what they do well, but outside of this forum, it really depends on where you live as to whether you'll ever see a wizard. I think 2-3 people carry wizards in my area. One is me and the other guy I turned onto them. I know another guy 90 miles away carries one, too.
I think a big part of what carries the Roc is who throws them. Ken Climo and Barry Schultz. two of the most popular disc golfers around are always throwing them.
I was talking about this the other day - I *never* hear any of the discraft guys throwing a buzz, wasp, drone, etc. I know they do, but you never hear about them throwing them. Like Barry on the famous downhill 400' shot or Ken saying *anything under 350' and I throw my roc*.
Also, the fact that the Roc has been around so long. there just weren't that many options and it does perform well. I do believe they really hit a good spot with the disc, but I do believe it's also more than just the disc.
I think a big part of what carries the Roc is who throws them. Ken Climo and Barry Schultz. two of the most popular disc golfers around are always throwing them.
I was talking about this the other day - I *never* hear any of the discraft guys throwing a buzz, wasp, drone, etc. I know they do, but you never hear about them throwing them. Like Barry on the famous downhill 400' shot or Ken saying *anything under 350' and I throw my roc*.
Also, the fact that the Roc has been around so long. there just weren't that many options and it does perform well. I do believe they really hit a good spot with the disc, but I do believe it's also more than just the disc.
Blake_T1
* Ace Member *
it honestly becomes easy to find the "superior" discs out there if you rate them under an applicable structure.
a pred would be judged by the same criteria but each letter grade would have a different meaning. e.g. a predator's fade grade for #2 would be a D- vs. roc characteristics, but as an overstable pig characteristics it would be an A.
a wizard as an approach disc and short driver would probably be the same.
here's some putt & approach discs graded in that way.
Wizard: 1. A, 2. A-, 3. A-, 4. A = GPA 3.83
Warlock: 1. B+, 2. A-, 3. A, 4. A = GPA 3.75
KC Aviar: 1. A-, 2. A, 3. A, 4. A- = GPA 3.83
Challenger: 1. A, 2. B+, 3. B+, 4. A- = GPA 3.58
Banger: 1. A-, 2. A, 3. A, 4. B = GPA 3.67
Rattler: 1. D-, 2. D-, 3. B+, 4. D = GPA 1.42
reason i regard the wizard more highly than a kc aviar is that a beat in wizard basically becomes an A, A, A/A-, A whereas a broken in KC Aviar becomes a B+, A, A, A-.
a disc used for s-curves would have different categories of grading.
a pred would be judged by the same criteria but each letter grade would have a different meaning. e.g. a predator's fade grade for #2 would be a D- vs. roc characteristics, but as an overstable pig characteristics it would be an A.
a wizard as an approach disc and short driver would probably be the same.
here's some putt & approach discs graded in that way.
Wizard: 1. A, 2. A-, 3. A-, 4. A = GPA 3.83
Warlock: 1. B+, 2. A-, 3. A, 4. A = GPA 3.75
KC Aviar: 1. A-, 2. A, 3. A, 4. A- = GPA 3.83
Challenger: 1. A, 2. B+, 3. B+, 4. A- = GPA 3.58
Banger: 1. A-, 2. A, 3. A, 4. B = GPA 3.67
Rattler: 1. D-, 2. D-, 3. B+, 4. D = GPA 1.42
reason i regard the wizard more highly than a kc aviar is that a beat in wizard basically becomes an A, A, A/A-, A whereas a broken in KC Aviar becomes a B+, A, A, A-.
a disc used for s-curves would have different categories of grading.
Star Shark
* Ace Member *
I don't throw either for the following reasons
Roc - Love the disc, but the courses around here are VERY rough. Rocky and lots of trees. I have an 18 month old Roc that people thought I'd had for 10 years. I wanted a premium plastic mid and Sharks are very similar and very easy to find.
Wizard - We don't see much Gateway out here and I've discovered that I like lower profile putters, hence the Spike and the XD being my putters.
Roc - Love the disc, but the courses around here are VERY rough. Rocky and lots of trees. I have an 18 month old Roc that people thought I'd had for 10 years. I wanted a premium plastic mid and Sharks are very similar and very easy to find.
Wizard - We don't see much Gateway out here and I've discovered that I like lower profile putters, hence the Spike and the XD being my putters.
JR
* Ace Member *
I agree with Blake about grading different things and discs too. And how it is very useful. I suggest everyone do this. That's every day work for managers. It's not a black art. Benefits should be clear.
There are several ways of approaching things and it boils down to what you are trying to do, your abilities and outside factors. Strictly looking at one aspect may skew results. The more variables you consider the more conclusions are likely to deviate from a narrow outlook on things. The larger the analysis the smaller the crowd that understands it is. A journalist asked a professor about Einstein's theory of relativity the larger one that I don't recall the exact name of. The journalist said I've heard that there are three people who understand this theory. The professor said something like Einstein understands it, I understand it, who's the third?
I certainly don't want to debate methodology because I'm not competent so I'd like to present a very mundane yet workable different and wider perspective to the same situation expanded a bit further. I'd like you to fill out more detail as needed and rate discs for different results yourself because even among the brightest of minds in the scientific community nothing short of religious wars occur all the time about methodology and application. And people should know by now how we in this bored get cliques advocating this and that disc for different roles. I don't want to debate what you should achieve in analysis, how you should analyze and what to take into account because that's a matter of university level courses in scientific research and is a large subject and better left to professors.
All I'm saying that you can gain benefits of rating discs and as long as you don't go overboard like accounting for the movements of the moon you should gain knowledge and be able to take new looks at your philosophy of playing, disc selection, risk/reward calculations etc.
How would the analysis of discs vary for any role or requirement from what Blake put forward if you were to grade also your general throwing ability modified by your technique flaws like inability to release discs with certain physical properties, your slowness of finger spring, nose angle available, the difficulty of getting nose down angle x vs apex height y, previous combined with snapping ablility and speed for correct hyzer angle at release and the possible room and injury restrictions, constant wind beating ability, gusting wind tackling, swirling wind handling, potential available flight lines(manipulation), the flight lines you are able to use now and which ones you potentially can learn and if you have the time to learn them, how much speed vs spin the disc requires and how much can you get each time and what's your success rate in getting maximum results and how fatal are the results of failed full force attempts and how often can you risk full results and are there other discs that increase your make rate and give less fatal fails, grip lock susceptibility, wearing of muscles leading to less consistency and accuracy late in a tournament, ability to avoid the most dangerous objects on the next throw and the likelyhood of hitting every object and the likelyhood of getting how severe kicks landing behind how difficult objects for the next throw etc. This is getting boooooriiinngg... I could've gone on. Maybe you should too.
People could probably add requirements forever. Do you feel Dave Dunipace now and why Innova has so many discs in production? Can you see why people can have such widely different approaches to playing and the demands made on the properties of discs? The amount of roads that lead to Rome isn't few.
There are several ways of approaching things and it boils down to what you are trying to do, your abilities and outside factors. Strictly looking at one aspect may skew results. The more variables you consider the more conclusions are likely to deviate from a narrow outlook on things. The larger the analysis the smaller the crowd that understands it is. A journalist asked a professor about Einstein's theory of relativity the larger one that I don't recall the exact name of. The journalist said I've heard that there are three people who understand this theory. The professor said something like Einstein understands it, I understand it, who's the third?
I certainly don't want to debate methodology because I'm not competent so I'd like to present a very mundane yet workable different and wider perspective to the same situation expanded a bit further. I'd like you to fill out more detail as needed and rate discs for different results yourself because even among the brightest of minds in the scientific community nothing short of religious wars occur all the time about methodology and application. And people should know by now how we in this bored get cliques advocating this and that disc for different roles. I don't want to debate what you should achieve in analysis, how you should analyze and what to take into account because that's a matter of university level courses in scientific research and is a large subject and better left to professors.
All I'm saying that you can gain benefits of rating discs and as long as you don't go overboard like accounting for the movements of the moon you should gain knowledge and be able to take new looks at your philosophy of playing, disc selection, risk/reward calculations etc.
How would the analysis of discs vary for any role or requirement from what Blake put forward if you were to grade also your general throwing ability modified by your technique flaws like inability to release discs with certain physical properties, your slowness of finger spring, nose angle available, the difficulty of getting nose down angle x vs apex height y, previous combined with snapping ablility and speed for correct hyzer angle at release and the possible room and injury restrictions, constant wind beating ability, gusting wind tackling, swirling wind handling, potential available flight lines(manipulation), the flight lines you are able to use now and which ones you potentially can learn and if you have the time to learn them, how much speed vs spin the disc requires and how much can you get each time and what's your success rate in getting maximum results and how fatal are the results of failed full force attempts and how often can you risk full results and are there other discs that increase your make rate and give less fatal fails, grip lock susceptibility, wearing of muscles leading to less consistency and accuracy late in a tournament, ability to avoid the most dangerous objects on the next throw and the likelyhood of hitting every object and the likelyhood of getting how severe kicks landing behind how difficult objects for the next throw etc. This is getting boooooriiinngg... I could've gone on. Maybe you should too.
People could probably add requirements forever. Do you feel Dave Dunipace now and why Innova has so many discs in production? Can you see why people can have such widely different approaches to playing and the demands made on the properties of discs? The amount of roads that lead to Rome isn't few.
Blake_T said:
bcsst26
Birdie Member
I switched to both the roc and wizard after reading threads around here. I had a shark and a putt&approach. The first time I threw the roc it was money. I was surprised what I could do with this disc. Last weekend I played a tournament were the recs played from shorter tees so I found myself using my roc all the time. Very consistent with it. As for the wizard I found a black proto and love it. It is great in the wind for me and is teaching me how to throw without oat.
It took me several Rocs and different tries before I finally fell for them. I didnt like them but kept trying just because every Innova Pro along with most everyone here couldnt be wrong. Finally tried a KC Pro and that was it. Dont know why I never took to the DX ones but only took one day to love a KC one. Now carry two, one beat one new 
Crossed Reality
Newbie
I use the Wizard but so far I prefer the Wasp/Buzzz to the Roc.
Actually I prefer the Goblin to the Roc as well
Actually I prefer the Goblin to the Roc as well
masterbeato
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2007
- Messages
- 1,922
Wizards are the best putters out there right now, and I don't even throw them but I do know that they are the best, it is not a matter of preference. It's only a matter of preference on what you throw, not what you say about a certain disc "oh yeah the wizard sucks because I don't throw it" or "I don't throw the wizard because it sucks" or my all time favorite "I don't like the feel, it's a horrible feel, so it's like the worst disc ever" no you don't throw the wizard because you choose to go for more versitility or feel or your just dumb. Feel is a preference and I 100% support that fact, if you perfer a feel of something over something else, then that's fine I'm not gonna say anything, ro try to tell you to throw anything else because I'm not like that. But when someone sits there and tries to tell me not to throw something, or says something like that simply because they noticed that I throw it and telling me it's not nearly as good as this disc is that they throw, I get pissed. I throw rocs because their the best midrange ever made and it's helped my game in huge amounts, not because the best players in the world throw them. IT'S A FACT!! Oh yeah and Dx Rocs do last a LONG TIME!!!
People around here are so wrapped up in discraft stuff that's all they will throw its like "dude your not sponsered" They try to throw a hyzer with a buzzz but all it does is straighten out on them I'm like dude, then grab a wasp they're always like "no man, the buzzz is better". ok? the buzz is better, but is it the better choice for the shot??? I don't even mention to them to go get a roc because then their really arrogant. "But rocs are innova". If I was sponsered by discraft I would use the Z wasps and the D wasps, because I like throwing stable midranges.
I may not use wizards, but I'm still not gonna sit there and say it's not the best putter out there. The best putter I have ever thrown EVER was those old school big bead classic aviar things that Blake let me throw last year. Those things are sweet. I want to find one, but I wont throw it so it would be pointless to grab it, not because the Kc Aviar I throw is better.
People around here are so wrapped up in discraft stuff that's all they will throw its like "dude your not sponsered" They try to throw a hyzer with a buzzz but all it does is straighten out on them I'm like dude, then grab a wasp they're always like "no man, the buzzz is better". ok? the buzz is better, but is it the better choice for the shot??? I don't even mention to them to go get a roc because then their really arrogant. "But rocs are innova". If I was sponsered by discraft I would use the Z wasps and the D wasps, because I like throwing stable midranges.
I may not use wizards, but I'm still not gonna sit there and say it's not the best putter out there. The best putter I have ever thrown EVER was those old school big bead classic aviar things that Blake let me throw last year. Those things are sweet. I want to find one, but I wont throw it so it would be pointless to grab it, not because the Kc Aviar I throw is better.
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